The List: Seven Underrated Systems

Good article & I'm sure much could be added about building a "world" game as opposed to the popular "game", worlds have seemingly fallen out of favor as the audience for them is all but dead to the eyes of the masses, hope remains thoughthat all the gamers will one day want a world to play in.

as far as point 6 goes, I can't say anyone has done it yet though a few are planning to at last attempt to provide an illusion of that, beyond one or two limited events in a tiny handful of games little to no changes have occured in games as a result of the players (such as zones radically changing in design, art or purpose due to storyline / in game interaction changes)

Yay!

I agree especially on crafting and economy, modern MMO developers have never learned how to do the things right (and those who knew how to, well, have long forgotten *cough* *coughswgnge*)...

MMOs nowadays are a straight race to kill the boss to get the weapon to kill the bigger boss to get the bigger weapon to kill the frickin' boss with laser beams to get the frickin' laser beam weapon to kill the... well... you get it...

And that is sad...

Heh numbers 1 - 5 are the 5 features I always want in an MMO, and also the 5 features most MMOs leave out as you say. Player housing in particular, even if it's instanced, goes so far to make you feel more attached to your character and more involved with the game world.

The problem is that many of these features are left out because the devs don't think there is much demand for them. Unfortunately this is self-perpetuating as many new players haven't actually had the chance to try out these features and so can't really know if they'd enjoy them or not. I've noticed a lot of players immediately dismissing player housing, saying it's a waste of time and takes people away from groups and raids, when they've never actually played an MMO that has a housing feature. They don't seem to understand that groups and raids aren't meant to be the sole purpose of the game, they're just what recent MMOs have given all the focus to and so, as usual, it's all they know.

I find it ironic that everyone is looking for the next big thing in the MMO genre, the real 'next-gen' MMO, and yet so many vehemently oppose the new features (or returning older features) that could make it happen. What we really need is a new game that does to UO and the old sandbox genre what WoW did to EQ and the themepark genre. The indie devs are moving in that direction with a good bit of success, we just need a bigger developer with a lot of money to give it a shot.

Very good article, pretty much sums up my thoughts too so I don't have much to add.

That said on the part of the tutorials, I don't think it's wrong to assume players know a lot already about MMOs and such tutorials often end-up bothering the majority of "experienced" MMO gamers which is probably why the tutorials are so weak in today's MMO. There's also very few MMOs who actually let you Skip the Tutorials .

I don't know why they don't make very detailed and helpfull tutorials while also giving you the possibility to skip them. It would make more sense wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Alberel

Heh numbers 1 - 5 are the 5 features I always want in an MMO, and also the 5 features most MMOs leave out as you say. Player housing in particular, even if it's instanced, goes so far to make you feel more attached to your character and more involved with the game world.

The problem is that many of these features are left out because the devs don't think there is much demand for them. Unfortunately this is self-perpetuating as many new players haven't actually had the chance to try out these features and so can't really know if they'd enjoy them or not. I've noticed a lot of players immediately dismissing player housing, saying it's a waste of time and takes people away from groups and raids, when they've never actually played an MMO that has a housing feature. They don't seem to understand that groups and raids aren't meant to be the sole purpose of the game, they're just what recent MMOs have given all the focus to and so, as usual, it's all they know.

I find it ironic that everyone is looking for the next big thing in the MMO genre, the real 'next-gen' MMO, and yet so many vehemently oppose the new features (or returning older features) that could make it happen. What we really need is a new game that does to UO and the old sandbox genre what WoW did to EQ and the themepark genre. The indie devs are moving in that direction with a good bit of success, we just need a bigger developer with a lot of money to give it a shot.

+1

great job here! i literally just finished talking about 4 of those points today in another thread. Number one was by far the most overlooked!

This list is so perfect in my opinion that I have almost no words to describe it, I shall leave an image with the idea. If developers understood these basic principles instead of just being different versions of the main features you mentioned, this genre would be a lot richer and diverse instead of copies of each other, World of Warcraft did it right at the time, but you won't be hitting another 10 million score doing the SAME thing. Focus on these underdeveloped areas, it might be the next subscriptions mine, as long as they give players fun instead of gear, experience, gear, experience, gear, and the next gear to look after... which will all be rendered futile at the next patch.

Best group hands down in any MMO I have seen:  Star Trek Online  Reason:  Groups of players in the same instance are often pulled together to work together for that mission.

Best tutorial:  Aion  Reason:  Teaches all of the basics of any MMO in an entertaining way.  World of Warcraft's only major benefit in their tutorial is they had a crafting tutorial, something fairly unique to it, with the two exceptions of Lord of the Rings Online and Everquest.

I don't post often, but I wanted to say, great article. Its rare for me to agree with every single point that people post in an article like this, but I found myself nodding my head in agreement as I was reading through it.

Short and to the point, well said.

Good article.  I agree with all of them!

My big three are:

Housing

Crafting

Economy

I like the list.

Seems like many devs put most of their focus on a massive level and gear grind, or a carrot on a stick approach to get life out of their game. If they took some time to make features like world shaping, housing, economy, and social aspects more exciting then its conceivable that people would stick around becase their game time is enjoyable. The treadmills lead to burn out and quitting.

I agree that EVE is in a world of its own in these aspects, which is why it has been such a success. The problem is the learning curve and perceived inaccessability for new players when faced with 6 year vets.

 Very good article!

The only one I disagreed with is the one I think hurts more mmos than it helps and that's housing. While giving someone a small plot of land and some things to do with it definitely help to draw that player into that world, it hurts the community. Every player that is spending time in housing is spending time in an MMO away from everyone else playing. The housing in DAOC wrecked the cities because it gave the players in that game every reason to not go the main cities. They went so far as to give bonuses to crafting to people that stayed in housing. When the game was young the cities were full of people. Need something crafted and dozens of people were there to help. Baddies invading your lands? jump into a few locations and /yell and have an entire army ready to go in a few minutes. After housing went live a large % of the population disappeared from nearly every area in the game and it felt empty. When a new player comes along and a game feels empty or they have a problem and noone is around to help, they move on. If the game devs put enough time into giving players things to do as part of a community there shouldn't be any time for housing anyway.

Great article.

Housing and Crafting....totally agree. As a matter of fact, if you DON'T do a very good job of BOTH (along with the other more commonly catered to systems of MMOs).....I can GUARANTEE YOU that this gamer won't be stayin' long.

A really nice post! And I completely agree!

To me I would like to see more and better crafting and economy in mmo's

You hit the nail on the head!  Your number one is truely correct.  Recently the only game I can think of that I enjoyed was Lotro.  It wasn't the story/quest line.  It wasn't the fact that I loved the movies.  It was the fact that when I got tired of killing thousands of monsters, there's actually other things I can do.  I can spend hours just hanging out in Bree or other cities, strumming on my Lute (MIDI Keyboards ftw!).  Then there's the fact that not only do I have a guild full of people to talk to and have parties with, I also have a Family, made of close friends that I've known for years from other games.  Probably the greatest thing of the "Strictly Social" is my house, and guildhouse.  We constantly have parties and gatherings.  This also thrives another point you had, Crafting.  Between cooks and other crafters (door prizes hehe), it gives the game a sense that we all made this party happen.  We didn't just go to the store and buy booze and a feast, we actually cooked and made it ourselves.

Originally posted by hogscraper

 Very good article!

The only one I disagreed with is the one I think hurts more mmos than it helps and that's housing. While giving someone a small plot of land and some things to do with it definitely help to draw that player into that world, it hurts the community. Every player that is spending time in housing is spending time in an MMO away from everyone else playing. The housing in DAOC wrecked the cities because it gave the players in that game every reason to not go the main cities. They went so far as to give bonuses to crafting to people that stayed in housing. When the game was young the cities were full of people. Need something crafted and dozens of people were there to help. Baddies invading your lands? jump into a few locations and /yell and have an entire army ready to go in a few minutes. After housing went live a large % of the population disappeared from nearly every area in the game and it felt empty. When a new player comes along and a game feels empty or they have a problem and noone is around to help, they move on. If the game devs put enough time into giving players things to do as part of a community there shouldn't be any time for housing anyway.

This really depends on implementation. The problem with your example is that the devs gave players an incentive to leave the active community and made housing an unsocial feature. That's just a bad implementation.

Housing shouldn't be a private place to do things that can be done elsewhere, like crafting, it should really be a means of furthering the customisation of your character and expressing yourself (as well as showing off your accomplishments).

I remember in EQ2 they made interesting use of the feature through the broker system. If you went to a player's house to buy an item off them it would be 20% cheaper than if you bought it through the broker. This made it a bit more social since I'd often be going around and seeing what other people have done with their houses whilst I was shopping. It doesn't solve the problem you're describing but it's a step in the right direction.

I remember my huge collection of books as well, all lined up neatly on my shelves... every single one was a complete book that could be opened and read, many of them obtained via quests or creature mastery and developing the lore of the game world. I didn't read all of them, but just knowing that they were there and could be read really made the world feel that much deeper.

The key, as with all MMO features, is to integrate it into other systems. Crafting always feels 'tacked on' unless it's integrated into the economy properly. It's the same with housing, it won't work unless they work it into the social systems of the game, giving players reasons to visit other players' houses and involving it with other aspects of gameplay.

couldn't agree more especially

with what you said on crafting, housing, and Malleable World

swg did the housing and crafting better then any game iv seen yet

as for malleable world i have yet to see it pulled off

I play City of Heroes/Villains which seems to do most of those things rather well.

1)  Tutorial... the Tutorial is fairly simple, and gives you a very good grounding for the basics, including teaming up with other players.  The Heroes tutorial has a badge quest in it that is mega easy in a team, long and grinding solo, so that if nothing else, encourages teaming, as experienced players are always calling for a Badge Team, and new players can get a feel for basic teaming through that.

Later on you can get a Crafting Tutorial at one of the Paragon City Universities, and a Scenario Creation tutorial at the Aeon Corp buidlings, so they cover several layers of play.

2)  Maleability... I don't see this much in CoX.  There are some adventures that seem to point toward it, and, thanks to events like the Rikti Invasion, the Zombie Swarms, and a few others, you do get some feeling for world events happening and being effected by players, but to tell the truth, the world is static.  Wish it could be otherwise, but it seems to me that all the other games I've played are the same to varying degrees.  When a truly maleable game is invented, it'll be the next big thing, I don't doubt that.

3)  Crafting...  CoX didn't start out with Crafting, but it certainly fulfills the need with the system introduced with Wentworth's/Black Market/University Invention Tutorial.  You gather stuff, ostensably bits of equipment taken off of villains or heroes you defeat, and, using your gageteering skill (Invention skill) turn them into enhancements for your powers, new costume parts, or temperary powers.  These can be traded, sold, saved, or otherwise used, in most cases.  Temperary Powers and Costume items can't be traded once made, however, you can certainly trade the parts around.

4)  Grouping... or Teaming, in this case, is facilitated by a "Looking for Team" tool which is fairly detailed.  It is proactive, in that you can place your wish to be teamed into the tool as well as look for others to team with using it.  You can even add text with team  type preferences.  Invitations to a team can come from anywhere in the game, making it a universal tool.  There are a lot of reasons to team, most obviously a large experience bonus for bigger teams.  I like being able to team with up to 8 players, rather than the more common 6 players of other games.

There are also a lot of communication tools to facilitate looking for a team.

5)  Housing...  Well, CoX sorta has housing, if you count the building of a Superhero Base.  This requires cooperation from several players, as you group together in a supergroup and gain prestige which is used to build your base.  This solves one of the complaints people have about housing, in that it has to be a team effort.  A single player simply cannot gain prestige fast enough to do much, though from personal experience, you can do a very basic base with only one or two players contributing. In order to have all the bells and whistles, however, you really need a fairly large hord of players helping.

The Invention system impinges on this as well, in that you use invention salvage (the stuff you pick up after battles) to build a lot of special base equipment like teleporters.

6)  Economy...  Through Wentworth's and the Black Market, CoX has a thriving economy.  You can sell just about everything you can find in the game from Enhancements to Invention Salvage to Crafted Enhancements.  The price is dutch auction style, you set a minimum price to sell and buyers set a maximum price to buy.  If the prices are right, the transaction happens automatically.

Things trade according to demand and real game value.  I've seen common Inspirations sell for 5 and uncommon ones sell for 250,000.  I've seen recipes sell for 100 and others sell for 500,000,000.  The unit of exchange is Influence or Infamy.  Sometimes I'll go on and buy up cheap things for horridly high prices just to thrill some player who might be down on his luck.  I'm not the only one who does it, I once sold a common Inspiration for 1,000,000 influence, a real bonus for that character, as it was the only one I had on the server.

The only thing I can't understand is why more people don't check the price things sell to vendors for before selling them on the markets.  Sigh.  You can make a nice bit of gelt buying enhancements for a pitance on auction and selling them to vendors for a huge profit.

7) Strictly Social...  CoX seems to straddle the fence on this one.  There are whole zones who's function is pretty much social interaction like Pocket D, and systems like Badge Hunting, which are mostly for the bragging rights ( a few badges give bonuses, and lead to Accolades, which give bonuses,  but mostly it's for the bragging rights.)  Both players and GM's are always holding contests, dances, races, and such.  I'd say that CoX is pretty social.  Certainly it gives room for it, and players are open to it.

...

In the final analysis, CoX seems to answer all these points.  Howcome you guys aren't over here playing?  LOL.

Ironically.. the game that I believe is the best example of all the above is Star Wars Galaxies.

I know players love to bash the game... and the dead horse has been beaten over and over again for years upon years now.

But really, in terms of full developped systems, on current games (not their launch-versions)... Galaxies has a surprisingly high number of these kinds of 'preferred' game features.

SWG Tutorial is basic,but it gets you there, including crafting, space flight, combat, entertainment. 

SWG Housing.. for a combat game, is outstanding.  There are some breathtaking player-created houses in Galaxies.   There is a wide variety of housing (mostly crafted, see below)

SWG Crafting.. in-depth, functional, a complete system with 3 classes of its own.  Crafted items are desired, purchased and add depth to the game (clothing & armor is almost exclusively crafted).  Crafting is a cornerstone of Galaxies... not an afterthought.

SWG Economy... not the best, not EvE.. but still functional.  

SWG Malleable World... there is SOME kind of worldwide change since the last game Update on the Galactic Civil War (GCW).  Your factional 'presence' affects regional spawns and interplanetary scores (and factional item costs).   Its not a dramatic change, but there is a 'factional' team score system in place.

SWG Grouping... some improvements here to.  Player search (by profession) helps.. but the new 'group pickup' instant travel makes it easier to team up together.  The tutorial does not touch grouping however.. perhaps some day.

SWG Social.... Entertainers.. you can play Galaxies and never shoot a single creature to level up as an Entertainer.  Entertainers do provide buffs to other characters but also are the 'tools' use for character appearance changes (hairstyles, height, age).

The sad thing is.. players are simply too hung up on the whole Next Generation Enhancement (NGE) 'betrayal' and their anger about the changes to the combat-based classes that they abandoned this otherwise well-rounded game.

Space, Ground, Crafting, Housing, Entertainment, Chronicals, Collections, Herioc Instances, Faction Combat, Bounty Hunting... all tied together in a 6 year old MMO.

If SWG was launched as it is today, without the history 'baggage', and a few visual upgrades (and a few less fairy wings)... I bet the hype-meter would be pretty high overall.

Galaxies is not new, its not perfect, its not all-about-Jedi... but it certainly has a wide array of systems and player interests that it still, to this day, despite all the nay-sayers and dooms-day predictions, is fun to play.

Too bad soo many of us are missing out.

I'd encourage you all to take a 2nd look at the game, put your blinders on, IGNORE the forums and really explore what Galaxies has to offer. 

"Still though, in order to give your players the feeling that they are contributing to something greater than themselves, and that their actions in the world have some genuine effect beyond personal levelling.".......what?

What was the rest of the sentence supposed to be?

#1 - Tutorial

My biggest pet peeve is when the tutorial is separate to the main world.  When I start the game - I want to START the game.  The tutorial should wrap around me, not be stuck in the middle of it.

#2 - Malleable world

I'd just be happy to see the seasons change.  Did Ryzom do that, or did I imagine it?

#3 - Crafting

Most importantly, I'd like the quality of items to depend on the skill of the crafter and not what level items they bring in.  For example, a level 1 crafter can take wolf skin (from a low level wolf) and create a poor jacket.  A level 50 crafter can take that same wolf skin and create an amazing jacket that would be good enough to wear for a level 50.  For that to work there has to actual skill in crafting the items and not just dinging level 50.  This would also mean there's always a flow of money back into lower levels and less trash lying around.

#4 - Grouping

I played MMOs for a couple of years before I ever got into a group.  The reason being that I was scared I'd look like I didn't know what I was doing.  I think MMOs could do with a (skippable) interactive tutorial into groups that explains what a tank is, how a healer should contribute, how to play a melee DPS class etc. - and most importantly, how the group dynamics work in that particular game!

#3 - Housing

I want a game where the main cities have a finite number of (non-instanced) houses/apartments/etc and they can all be bought/sold/traded/rented.  Allow people to get into real estate or become landlords to make there money.  Allow people to build there own houses, but make it very expensive and something to do in the endgame other than raiding.

#2 - Economy

I think MMOs give out money far too easily.  What I'd like to see is an MMO that gives better starter armour, that'll last longer, and make money much harder to acquire.

#1 - Social

Reet's Retreat in Anarchy Online - the best social hangout in any MMO.  I was most disappointed that other MMOs didn't have places like this (AO was my first MMO). 

"Malleable World."

I hear this often as a complaint, but I've almost never seen any solutions offered. The problem with this issue (I've always believed) is the mechanics of MMO game design itself make it very difficult to implement successfully. Someone mentioned Ryzom seasons but that's not an example of players impacting the world, although I always enjoyed it tremendously.

How do you create a system that allows a single player to have an overall impact on the world without degrading performance, as well as allow thousands of individual players to make changes that will affect everyone on the server? How much of an impact would it really be? Players are not developers. Do you allow players to destroy towns and cities? Are those integral to the story line of the game in PvE? Do you allow them to build non instanced housing? Which eventually clutters the landscape of a small zone in an MMO, ending up looking like a digital refugee camp?  What about accomplishments? Do players just get to put up a virtual sign in a field somewhere with a list of their accompishments? Do they finish a quest which opens up a new zone for everyone? What about the players that come after that who never get the opportunity?

What about the PvE storyline of MMOs? How do you allow players to influence/change that without leaving out the 99% of your playerbase that may not get to experience it? World events seem like the furthest we've seen this concept implemented in MMOs to date. In Everquest 2 there was a world event where you could help build portals to other parts of the world. If you happened to be offline that week, the playerbase voraciously devoured the new content and finished the portals. So if you came back the next week...too bad, you didn't get to participate. Honestly though, what else can developers do?

Not saying I have all the answers. I'm just getting weary of seeing the "let the players impact the world" complaint with no mention of what a nightmare this must be to develop and implement in a way that's at least somewhat available to your playerbase..

Second Life style. It's not hard conceptionally, just hard to create system which can not be abused. 

It seems the majority of  people these days only care about fighting and getting phat loot.  There are so many other things you can do in a MMO if they just put the features there.  IMO I think a MMO should be like a virtual world, yes there should be combat, but you should also have other things. I like to explore and socialize. I really enjoyed the music system in LOTRO, and their Pipe Smoke system, different types of pipeweed made different smoke shapes.

If a MMO had 1-6 at the start and there were a lot of people roleplaying I could see my self playing that game for a long time. FFXI was my first love it wasn't my first mmo though.  But it had a lot of things I miss, mostly grouping but there was a lot of socializing in that game, be it with people in your party, linkshell or just some random people you met in a town.   It seems like everyone now just wants to solo and get stuff done as fast as possible to get to max level.  I sure hope FFXIV brings back that grouping socializing that I've missed for a long time now.

Housing, Grouping and Social are very closely tied together. It's a relatively obvious connection but I think that too many devs are trying to develop game mechanics to coax humans to behave a certain way rather than building them to support the way people actually behave.

very well said. yes, sadly most mmos today focus on that level up path and barely even focus on the story driving it let alone anything else. hell, several of the the most recent mmo games didnt even get the core systems down come launch time. it seems like its getting to be all about box sales with new mmos only to have the game limp along to milk the sad few who actually cling on with their subscription. 

Originally posted by Shelby13

Ironically.. the game that I believe is the best example of all the above is Star Wars Galaxies.

I know players love to bash the game... and the dead horse has been beaten over and over again for years upon years now.

But really, in terms of full developped systems, on current games (not their launch-versions)... Galaxies has a surprisingly high number of these kinds of 'preferred' game features.

SWG Tutorial is basic,but it gets you there, including crafting, space flight, combat, entertainment. 

SWG Housing.. for a combat game, is outstanding.  There are some breathtaking player-created houses in Galaxies.   There is a wide variety of housing (mostly crafted, see below)

SWG Crafting.. in-depth, functional, a complete system with 3 classes of its own.  Crafted items are desired, purchased and add depth to the game (clothing & armor is almost exclusively crafted).  Crafting is a cornerstone of Galaxies... not an afterthought.

SWG Economy... not the best, not EvE.. but still functional.  

SWG Malleable World... there is SOME kind of worldwide change since the last game Update on the Galactic Civil War (GCW).  Your factional 'presence' affects regional spawns and interplanetary scores (and factional item costs).   Its not a dramatic change, but there is a 'factional' team score system in place.

SWG Grouping... some improvements here to.  Player search (by profession) helps.. but the new 'group pickup' instant travel makes it easier to team up together.  The tutorial does not touch grouping however.. perhaps some day.

SWG Social.... Entertainers.. you can play Galaxies and never shoot a single creature to level up as an Entertainer.  Entertainers do provide buffs to other characters but also are the 'tools' use for character appearance changes (hairstyles, height, age).

The sad thing is.. players are simply too hung up on the whole Next Generation Enhancement (NGE) 'betrayal' and their anger about the changes to the combat-based classes that they abandoned this otherwise well-rounded game.

Space, Ground, Crafting, Housing, Entertainment, Chronicals, Collections, Herioc Instances, Faction Combat, Bounty Hunting... all tied together in a 6 year old MMO.

If SWG was launched as it is today, without the history 'baggage', and a few visual upgrades (and a few less fairy wings)... I bet the hype-meter would be pretty high overall.

Galaxies is not new, its not perfect, its not all-about-Jedi... but it certainly has a wide array of systems and player interests that it still, to this day, despite all the nay-sayers and dooms-day predictions, is fun to play.

Too bad soo many of us are missing out.

I'd encourage you all to take a 2nd look at the game, put your blinders on, IGNORE the forums and really explore what Galaxies has to offer. 

 

 

i agree

swg did exemplify what this post was about

especially crafting iv never seen a better crafting system then swg's

 pre-nge swg was and sadly still is the ideal game for me

and we will probably never see its like again

the thing that pissed me off about the NGE was one particular part of the update

its that they took our ability to dictate who our character was in the swg univers and stuck us in "Iconic" cookie cutter classes like in every other MMO out there

thats what pissed me off most about the NGE the rest of what i didnt like i could of lived with 

and its something there "expertese system" could never hope to replace

and they took some features i liked out like CH but again i could of lived with that part

and i saw they replaced ch  in a recent revisit to the game 

 Games certainly need to let the community drive the market/economy.

EQ early on didn't have the easy tools to make selling fast or convenient.  But player to player interaction  made it.  It took play time, allowed for socialization, and created work for reward.  Finding that new helm at a good price meant face to face haggle sessions.  I loved hanging out in the EC tunnel.

The other thing games need is a good world as the article mentions, and methods to put the social back in game.  The lack of that is one reason I've been on the longest retirement from MMO's since the way early days of the genre.  The downtime in EQ allowed for that, as well as the non button mashing play style..  Less button mashing = more time to work out strategy + pulling/ shoot the shit with your group.  Button mashing has yet to provide any real play variety/purpose.

The current world systems in most games are killing it at the moment.  Areas are set up like boxes that serve one purpose, or set path that you will follow.  I want to explore and not be told how to complete every objective in my quest journal.  Bring back old world style lore, areas with seemingly no purpose.  Games like EQ and some others really gave you the feeling that you could be in another place.  

Don't get me wrong some advancements have been great in the MMO world, but rethinking some of what seems old-school could provide the heart that a lot of games lack now.

Originally posted by cukimunga

It seems the majority of  people these days only care about fighting and getting phat loot.  There are so many other things you can do in a MMO if they just put the features there.  IMO I think a MMO should be like a virtual world, yes there should be combat, but you should also have other things. I like to explore and socialize. I really enjoyed the music system in LOTRO, and their Pipe Smoke system, different types of pipeweed made different smoke shapes.

If a MMO had 1-6 at the start and there were a lot of people roleplaying I could see my self playing that game for a long time. FFXI was my first love it wasn't my first mmo though.  But it had a lot of things I miss, mostly grouping but there was a lot of socializing in that game, be it with people in your party, linkshell or just some random people you met in a town.   It seems like everyone now just wants to solo and get stuff done as fast as possible to get to max level.  I sure hope FFXIV brings back that grouping socializing that I've missed for a long time now.

I agree with this. I could really enjoy an mmo that doesn't focus on combat at the moment. It needs it in there but I would love to be able to focus on other aspects of a game without feeling like I'm missing out. I, too, loved the music system and other roleplay features in LotRO, but that game also quickly became obsessed with gear and raiding (I actually preferred it before they added Helegrod and the Rift).

As for FFXI, I don't think I'll ever forget the community in that game. Never before and never since have I been able to just stop and have a conversation with random passers by in a town. The amount of time I would waste away just chatting in Jeuno. :)

Tutorial - It's actually hard for me to judge these now as I'm an experienced MMOer.

Malleable World - Have to give it to Eve, SWG, ATITD and Horizons/Istaria - Horizons/Istaria was amazing in the beginning - crafters had to work together with adventurers to build up things to open new stuff.  For example, opening up the mines unlocked a race, solving a riddle unlocked another race, building bridges allowed you to discover new lands, that kind of thing - problem they had was that it got out of hand for the developers because each server was at a different stage - then becomes very hard to update anything.  Would work great on a 'one server' system.  I also believe that SWG, ATITD and Horizons/Istaria have something lots of games are missing - construction - actually placing structures where everyone can see them, even if ugly, adds a 'living' element to the world.

Crafting - All of the games I listed above also have great crafting systems.  Crafter skill level is considered in the results.  I don't care for mini games when I'm crafting - instead give me a complex system that gives me a chance to make unique items.   Improving my own gear while important is not why I craft - heck I don't even care if I make anything useful in the game - let me just make 'social' stuff, but let it have my own stamp on it (and I don't mean my name).

Grouping - It would be nice if devs would keep a few things in mind.  Group content that is integral to the game becomes very hard to do as the game ages.  Witness LOTRO adding a solo option to all the group Book quests.  The other big thing to keep in mind is to break it up somehow into smaller sessions - it's really hard to keep a group together for more than a couple of hours.  More games should also include cooperative events - like there's a food shortage and everyone is asked to donate food to the cause - adventurers go out and gather meat, crafters go out and cook, etc - This is where MMOs can shine by  including other forms of social gaming/interactions.

Housing - Guess what got me to buy STO?  For me the game is fun - but what made my purchase decision in the end was the Bridge - not much now, but I can at least see the possibilities.  I've tried playing games without housing - I last to about level 20.  This is probably due to starting out my MMO adventures with SWG.

Economy - Well the reason they become so homogenized really has to do with crafting not allowing for anything unique/original - if all the stuff is dropped or equivalent then nothing stands out.

Strictly Social - Bingo - this is the big one.  Why neglect this?  To my mind this includes costumes, dyeing, housing items, pets, emotes, and hobbies (I will kiss the feet of the dev who puts in haberdashery as a hobby). 

I would add one more - Community - It's more than the forums - let the GMs be seen in game - not just magically appear to fix a problem and then poof - have them interact with folks.  Add in more short events, nothing earth shattering, but maybe the Goddess of Earth visits a city and hands out a few short term buffs - someone who doesn't walk on a programmed path or speak the same stuff over and over again.  Just because MMOs are persistent that doesn't mean we want them set in stone and never changing - new content takes a while - give us some surprises while we wait.

Originally posted by Skuz

as far as point 6 goes, I can't say anyone has done it yet though a few are planning to at last attempt to provide an illusion of that, beyond one or two limited events in a tiny handful of games little to no changes have occured in games as a result of the players (such as zones radically changing in design, art or purpose due to storyline / in game interaction changes)

Eve has got a not quite complete system for this.

There are the massive player controlled areas where you can build empires destroy them lots of battles etc. However the tools to build your empire are not complete yet, the recent dominion upgrade lets you improve industry as well. However it still feels like we are living off the space rather than owning it until a few more things are added.

Simpler system is the factional warfare system where people battle on behalf of an NPC faction to take space. less maleable but it's shown some interesting things such as when one side effectively won by taking over all their oponents space. This victory was worked into the storyline by ccp which I thought was a rather nice touch, also gave all the winning side a trophy rewarding their victory.

Originally posted by Delameko

#1 - Tutorial

My biggest pet peeve is when the tutorial is separate to the main world.  When I start the game - I want to START the game.  The tutorial should wrap around me, not be stuck in the middle of it.

#2 - Malleable world

I'd just be happy to see the seasons change.  Did Ryzom do that, or did I imagine it?

#3 - Crafting

Most importantly, I'd like the quality of items to depend on the skill of the crafter and not what level items they bring in.  For example, a level 1 crafter can take wolf skin (from a low level wolf) and create a poor jacket.  A level 50 crafter can take that same wolf skin and create an amazing jacket that would be good enough to wear for a level 50.  For that to work there has to actual skill in crafting the items and not just dinging level 50.  This would also mean there's always a flow of money back into lower levels and less trash lying around.

#4 - Grouping

I played MMOs for a couple of years before I ever got into a group.  The reason being that I was scared I'd look like I didn't know what I was doing.  I think MMOs could do with a (skippable) interactive tutorial into groups that explains what a tank is, how a healer should contribute, how to play a melee DPS class etc. - and most importantly, how the group dynamics work in that particular game!

#3 - Housing

I want a game where the main cities have a finite number of (non-instanced) houses/apartments/etc and they can all be bought/sold/traded/rented.  Allow people to get into real estate or become landlords to make there money.  Allow people to build there own houses, but make it very expensive and something to do in the endgame other than raiding.

#2 - Economy

I think MMOs give out money far too easily.  What I'd like to see is an MMO that gives better starter armour, that'll last longer, and make money much harder to acquire.

#1 - Social

Reet's Retreat in Anarchy Online - the best social hangout in any MMO.  I was most disappointed that other MMOs didn't have places like this (AO was my first MMO). 

You had me until Housing.

If something like this were implemented, what you would see is every property bought up by the uber-rich and kept permanently out of the hands of all but the other uber-rich.  Many players of MMOs (WoW community, I'm looking at you) tend to want to pull the ladder up behind them after they've climbed it, and this would provide them an excellent opportunity to do just that.  Player housing is certainly a big draw for me, but if I come to a game with that being a lure, only to find out that it's not available until end-game some months down the road, it's no longer a draw and it puts me one step closer to tipping out the door.

Economies in MMOs are notoriously poorly designed, so what would likely happen is even once you've reached end-game, jumped through all the stupid hoops to qualify for a place of your own, you'll need to purchase it from some self-styled land baron who will charge you more money than you've seen yet in your playing career in that world.  Why?  Because they set their prices towards the other uber-rich because that's where the money can be made.  I've see the same mechanic at work in DDO just recently while trying to upgrade my dinky little short sword to something with a bit more bite.  I have about 13000 gold accumulated so far and there are piddly little +2 Daggers selling for 20,000+ gold.  So who is expected to buy them?  Alts of other established players, because by the time you have the money for it if you're getting started, you'll no longer want it.  Instead, you'll be matching your 20,000g bank account against weapons selling in the 50,000 to 100,000 range.  Basically, the economy is driven by the very rich for the benefit of the very rich. 

Sorry, that sounds like a Marxist rant when it really wasn't intended to be.

The point is, the fun features of the game should be accessible to everyone, not just the chosen few leering down from their mountains of shiny coin.  I mean, the first dwelling you get shouldn't be fantastical mansion made of marble and silver, but even the lowliest of paupers should have a hovel to call their own.  And generally, that would be enough to satisfy for a while.

As far as purely social pursuits go, having a central hangout where people can just sort of ... hang out, wouldn't much do it for me.  Sitting around chatting, listening to awful pseudo-anachronistic banter and juvenile apemen comparing their e-peens, is not something that would attract me.  However, if there was something to do, even some sort of competition, where everyone had an equal chance of succeeding regardless of how long you've been playing the game, now that might draw me in.  Rewards wouldn't have anything to do with altering gameplay, but would be for bragging rights or cosmetic changes.  To spice it up, create random teams so that people can get together purely for fun, without the disincentive of failure having any meaningful impact.  If you want new players to embrace the community, provide some sort of direction on doing just that rather than providing little more than a glorified chat zone and expecting it to be enough.  The internet is rampant with chat rooms.  I don't need my *game* to provide yet another one.

I'm not really as bitter as I sound, but these are particular pet peeves of mine that developers have routinely seemed incapable of addressing.

Great article - Some of my additional points are  (Based on my only playing WoW) and REAL life (Yes - I have one)

TUTORIAL -  WoW on their Flying tutorial introduces it to Noobs at about Level 10 - DUMB!!!

By that time anyone who has been doing anything in the game - actually PLAYING the game - instead of having some high level escort them around and killing everything for them would have found out all about flying on their own.  This is just one of many stupid player things that should have just been put into a WRITTEN tutorial that the players could reference. Actually I suppose it really is if anyone would bother to read the material on the world of  WoW on their website.

CRAFTING - It seems to me that it takes FAR too long to get to the point where a crafter can make much of anything useful or profitable.  That coupled with the overly inflated prices for materials in the Auction House (unless the player has a bunch of scavenging alts to obtain materials)  makes crafting a dubious choice for lower level troops. 

GATHERING however is a good way for low level characters to gain money and supply crafters.  I really think that Gathering should be allowed as another category similar to the Cooking/ Fishing/First Adi category - and separate from Crafting.

While I am on the subject of the Auction House - it seems that there are some with lots of Gold who have a morbid desire to UNDERCUT the price of some items just to keep the low level troops from making money (the names become familiar soon enough).  I have some higher level troops who just LOVE this type - they buy up all the cheap stuff they put on the market and then when they leave they sell at the SANE going price and make money off the other persons totally anal attitude - LOL.

WEAPONS - It would appear that the WoW designers have LITTLE OR NO knowledge of handling of REAL weapons.  I am involved with groups in the Renaissance Faires that use "live steel" - REAL steel swords, pikes, axes and the like - and also real staves.  Blood is frequently drawn in these contests - although with all of the practices before shows to ELIMINATE accidents no one has died - YET! (Fingers crossed)  WOW Weapon speeds are rediculous!   I would like to see some REALISM in the use of weapons.  YEAH - I know, this is a fantasy world.

Staves have a slow rating in WOW - but anyone who has actually used them in a combat situation or has taken Martial Arts knows that they are VERY fast. 

What is this WOW obsession with HEAVY, SLOW  two-handed weapons. Anyone doing "Live Steel: combat knows that heavy Two-handed weapons are usually ONLY wielded by Very Big troops in HEAVY armor. EVERYONE else uses MUCH FASTER one handed weapons - a weapon and a shield OR two single handed weapons.  And the users of TWO weapons rapidly become almost as efficient with the "Off" hand as they do with the "Main" hand.  I think ALL classes that elect to adopt Dual wield should have this adjustment

Another WoW stupidity - Why have weapons labeled "MAIN HAND" at all?   If a player can only use ONE weapon it MUST be the main hand - now with the last Rogue revision with them coming out of the barn with dual wield it really limits the choice of weapons for the off hand.  BLIZZARD - ARE YOU LISTENING?  Eliminate the "Main Hand" Requirement for one handed weapons.

Another place that the WOW designers apparently have ABSOLUTELY NO expertise is in Bows.  I have been an Archer since I was 14 years old ( I just had my 82nd birthday - and still shoot in competition) so I think I am competent to comment on the subject.  A right handed shooter ALWAYS shoots with the arrow on the LEFT side of the bow - unless he/she is shooting with an oriental thumb-ring or a Japanese shooting glove that has a hook built into the thumb.  In both of these cases the Fingers are placed OVER the thumb until release. And the "shooting from the hip" with the bow flat  in front  may look good on the toons but it would get a REAL person killed in real life.

This post is in regards to his comments about grouping which I agree with 100%.  For some odd reason in the older games like DAOC random grouping happened quite often and it helped build community, everyone began to know everyone. Nowadays you barely know your own guild.

 #7 - Tutorial.  No complaints with most tutorials.  They're either very WoWesque or not.  Tutorial zone - Age of Conan did a great job in Tortuga.  

#6 - Malleable world.  I do like WoW's with the changes that occur in Icecrown, etc., as you progress it changes.  I would love to see more weather changes - extreme stuff randomly - hurricane, lightening, invasion of cockroaches - things that make it more real.  Events that could mess stuff up a bit or cause injury, etc. - and not planned as in "oh its the 11 earthquake on Tuesday! Real day/night and NOT on a 24 hour clock.   Love it in EQ2 where it get damn dark if you don't turn up your gamma.  Gates are shut in areas, etc.

#5 - Crafting.  Love this in a game, but the stuff should be useful from the beginning.  Not grind thru 20 pairs of gloves or 5 bad tables that you're just vendor.  The crafted items - housing, gear, food should have MORE value than random drops.  That runs an economy.  Gathering professions should be available to all that want to do them.  What do you mean I can pick flowers but can't cut a tree down or mine that vein of gold?  Some interdependencies on crafted items too, not everything but if I'm a carpenter, I might need iron whatevers from the smithy.

How about adding in farming (LoTRO type) grow some of the ingredients.  Or people want mounts - a tamer/wrangler that goes out and gets them with his skill.  Same for hunter/ranger pets or companion animals.

#4  - Grouping - WoW's recent change to the LFG has made that much easier. Cross server makes that much better, unfortunately, its only instanced (or in PvP bgs).  Grouping in world  quest lines can be difficult to do if you're not in a guild with others at your level or play at odd hours.  Especially epic lines that take more than a few hours to complete.  

#3 - Housing.  That is one of the fun things in games!  I love EQ2's and being able to go in others houses to see how they've decorated.  That and being able to sell from you house (save the broker fees), especially as you level is fun.  Gets you out in the town, etc.  Agree with the poster that mentioned all the books that are actually readable.  Things people can interact with in your house - food that can be eaten, lights on/off (EQ2 has great housing imho!).

I'm not sure how the guild housing has effected this in EQ2 now.  Love the look of the guild houses - bloody castles - but are the streets & towns empty?

#2 - Economy.  Personal prefer a broker to AH.  Buy directly and save your coin or not.  Have some of the vendors able to sell the things people sell to them.  Either crafted or drops.  Money shouldn't be super easy to get but it shouldn't be such a chore that it takes away from game play.

# 1 - Social.  Most of the chat channels, grouping, guilds, etc., are there in most games.  I don't know how you can force people to be social.  Smaller events - music or parties or random city attacks that need to be defended against.  Fun without having to be a major two week event.

Good article!!

I know that a lot of people haven't even heard of it, as it's not in the states (And may still not be anytime soon), but I have been playing a game in particular that has a lot of these things.

Monster Hunter Frontier.  Anyone who has played Freedom Unite for the PSP probably wouldn't think that it would half half of these things, but it does.

7) It has a very nice tutorial, if you can understand the language the game is in (Of course most people cannot that are reading these forums).  Teaches you everything you need to know about the town interface, and when you are on any tutorial missions, you have an NPC constantly talking to you telling you about the game, so you can figure it all out, and even assists you in your first missions. 

6) Granted, the world isn't exactly changed by the player's actions, his choices on what to do changes the area in which you are playing.  Night and Day even make a large influence, and even some of the monsters you are sent out to fight make a huge difference, and change the entire view of the environment.

5) Anyone who has ever played Monster Hunter at all knows that the entire game is crafting.  You kill monsters, get materials, and can make weapons, armors, and items out of it.  You can make anything you want if you have what you need.

4) Grouping makes the utmost difference in Frontier.  Since it is completely online, anyone and everyone can end up joining your group.  Of course it is still 4 people, as that's the foundation of the series, but if you have the wrong weapons, or wrong people in your group, you will fail.

3) Frontier has an entire customizable house system.  You can even get rare rewards not found anywhere else if you make your house right, and choose to get it reviewed.  Based on what items you put in compared to others, you get a score, and that score results in certain rewards.  Some of the best gems to upgrade armor are found from this system.

2) They have actually added monsters in Frontier that require you to interact with your fellow players to get the job done, or at least have a game plan.  Without working together, you can fail because of how the fight has to be done.

1) Unfortunately, I cannot comment on this aspect, as I am not yet a master of the Japanese language.  I can interact enough to get around, but I cannot be social yet =(.  I know there are people who are online all day and never even play, just chat up a storm, but I am not one of them.  =P

Like I said though, this is a Japanese game, not American yet.  As such, most people have never heard of it, but it has everything on this list, and is one of my favorite games for the last 3 months since I started playing it.  It's about having fun, because you can.  You can grind if you want to, but usually there's no reason to.  It's Monster Hunter, anyone who has played it extensively knows that Monster Hunter is extremely fun when taken the right way.

Mallable world is most important to me.

Originally posted by Shelby13  SWG Social.... Entertainers.. you can play Galaxies and never shoot a single creature to level up as an Entertainer.  Entertainers do provide buffs to other characters but also are the 'tools' use for character appearance changes (hairstyles, height, age).

Ironically.. the game that I believe is the best example of all the above is Star Wars Galaxies.

SWG Housing.. for a combat game, is outstanding.  There are some breathtaking player-created houses in Galaxies.   There is a wide variety of housing (mostly crafted, see below)

SWG Crafting.. in-depth, functional, a complete system with 3 classes of its own.  Crafted items are desired, purchased and add depth to the game (clothing & armor is almost exclusively crafted).  Crafting is a cornerstone of Galaxies... not an afterthought.

The sad thing is.. players are simply too hung up on the whole Next Generation Enhancement (NGE) 'betrayal' and their anger about the changes to the combat-based classes that they abandoned this otherwise well-rounded game.

Space, Ground, Crafting, Housing, Entertainment, Chronicals, Collections, Herioc Instances, Faction Combat, Bounty Hunting... all tied together in a 6 year old MMO.

If SWG was launched as it is today, without the history 'baggage', and a few visual upgrades (and a few less fairy wings)... I bet the hype-meter would be pretty high overall.

Galaxies is not new, its not perfect, its not all-about-Jedi... but it certainly has a wide array of systems and player interests that it still, to this day, despite all the nay-sayers and dooms-day predictions, is fun to play.

Too bad soo many of us are missing out.

I'd encourage you all to take a 2nd look at the game, put your blinders on, IGNORE the forums and really explore what Galaxies has to offer. 

I agree with you in many ways i think SWG does these things the best.

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)

Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.

As may other (older?) players I'm eager to see an mmoRPG that promotes grouping, socialization, has a deep crafting system with housing and non combat professions along the side.

The evolving environments would be a nice topping but they aren't mandatory.

To promote socialization just remove levels in game, having levels push everyone to rush to end level then shout loudly: there's no end content!

Another thing is important is to make combat fun and so challenging. Make death counts, from huge (combat) time sinks to objects / xp loss.

As for PvP which is seriously lacking in MMO, there is a need to make it more challenging, starting by hiding the opponents health bars to maybe hide their level.

Finally there is a major feature too often forgotten: the UI. You have too many (not so bad) games hindered by poor UI killing the fun and the immersion.

Although it seems the suits thinks (and might be right) that enhanced diablo 2 MMO sells, as does WoW.

Thanks for the article.

Originally posted by hogscraper

 Very good article!

The only one I disagreed with is the one I think hurts more mmos than it helps and that's housing. While giving someone a small plot of land and some things to do with it definitely help to draw that player into that world, it hurts the community.

I would respectfully disagree. SWG had housing and they overcame the problems you raised. Based on the way you moved around the game and the economy (wow, they connected them!). With the transport system built into the game, player housing spontaneously grew up close to cities (well, as close as you could get) because people wanted them accessible to the population as crafters sold their wares out of houses.

SWG further resolved some of these issues with player cities. Again, cities concentrated houses rather than having them scattered across the planet. Cities provided most of the advantages of NPC cities but not all but they primarily provided an alternative when the real estate outside cites was too full support more houses. 

All I'm pointing out is that housing can be a huge, positive draw to a game and it’s economy if implemented with careful thought and consideration to its role in a game. The housing in SWG actually created more traffic in the major cities than before it was implemented so keep an open mind and consider that there may be good a bad ways to implement any feature in a game, including ones that mostly provide atmosphere a game.
 

Ok, so I'm gonna ask a question here, and I'm not trolling, I really wanna know.

What is housing good for?

I've been playing MMOs for almost a decade now, and none of them had player housing. The closest thing I've seen was Warhammer's guild area that was in-accessible unless you were in a guild.

But I have never wished I had a house, or a room or whatever. So I don't get why people want housing so much. If anything, it seems to me like housing would hurt the game. You'd have less people in the city, less people PvPing, just... less people.

So, what's the attraction there?

I remember once me and some friends were saying it would be fun if our guild could own a guild-hall of sorts that was instanced, would be accessible only to guild-members, could issue temporary invites to non-guildies, and had a dueling area. Then we can make an invite-only event and advertise it for a certain day and time, where we'd run a dueling tournament. And also gamble on the winners and whatnot. This sounds like fun. But this is also PvP (the dueling part), and it has interactions with other player in an in-game atmosphere. Not just sitting around drinking tea and talking about our day.

So would a feature like this be considered good by those of you that want player-housing? Or is player housing in your minds only a personal private space that you can fully customize?

SWG/Pre-CU had 4 outta 7, imagine of they had added the other 3 instead making the NGE.

'nough said.

#1 - Tutorial

(1) basic hello world walk and talk   (2) unobtrusive hints about how to find and get started with the various systems / minigames / recent patches   (3) a sort of playable personality test that helps you find systems you might like and perhaps define your character's background/personality  (4) walkthrough of the mythology/history of the game ( I find that games tend to fail to realize that their accumulated history is actually a *huge* selling point if they could harness it )

#2 - Malleable world

Seasons, event cycles, player-influenced points.  Even a simple thing like a statue that shows a random person from the last group to complete a rare or epic quest adds a huge amount of depth.  Part of it is being able to leave a mark, part of it is not getting bored when making new characters.  I find it mind-boggling how little randomization most MMOs have - did MMO designers not play nethack in their youth?

#3 - Crafting

My personal measure of a fantasy game world is whether I can play a crafter with very limited combat skills and still feel like I'm having a fulfilling experience.

#4 - Grouping

Grouping is hard - this depends a lot on the personality types of the players and what they are looking for.  I've enjoyed playing in a shared world, but when it comes right down to it I'm a loner - I like crossing paths with people, doing little things to help, sharing accidental adventures, but not "grouping" or guilding.

#5 - Housing

I see housing as a corner case of the more general idea of crafting + malleable world.  It's just a corner of the world that you have total control over.

#6 - Economy

The most important thing to remember is that a free market rewards efficiency, not fun.  If people are trying to have fun, the game's economy can easily become their enemy.

#7 - Social

Do you want a game in your facebook or a facebook in your game? 

I couldn't agree with the article more.

As a hobby I try to design MMO concepts that deal with that stuff. And y'know it's not that hard to flesh it out. Sometimes I think alot of developers just sit down with an engine and slap a map together, then say "well, they'll buy this" so they put it in, "They'll buy this" and put it in, "We don't really need to do any thing new or try anything out of our reach" then they release it.

It's almost as if they are purposely avoiding giving players what they truly want.... It's not about gaming anymore, It's to much about money.

I agree with everything but the housing issue.

Been playing since UO and I still just don't get all the clamoring for housing.  It's either an open world eye sore(UO, AC1, SWG) or a useless instance(AO, EQ2, LOTRO).

If they're done right, they pull people away from the major towns and former hubs of activity become ghost towns.

If they're done wrong, everyone buys one, then they are left to languish, using valuable DB space serving as nothing more than decorative storage.

I guess I just don't get it.

Maybe someday some developer will create the perfect housing solution in MMO's and the light bulb will come on for me. 

Originally posted by Deewe

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)

 

Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.

 

i respectfully disagree

i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out

it even got fun

swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree

just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system

iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

as for UO never played it my self but i hear it was open pvp so

if that being the case you couldn't be more right almost all open pvp games have way too much grieffing

Originally posted by BigJohnny

Ok, so I'm gonna ask a question here, and I'm not trolling, I really wanna know.

What is housing good for?

 

1st off i apologize if you didnt like swg as im going to use it as a prime example hear :P as they were the closest to geting it right

2nd thing to have a working housing system you have to have really large worlds with lots of open space like swg had

well it gives you a place of storage as well as a place to show off if the game does decorating right and gives a graphic to all the loot you can pick up
like in swg

and it lets the player have some creativity

and it can have other functions too

in swg you could build city's

and you could sell stuff from you house via vender witch was your own npc you higher to sell your wares

it could also serve as a meeting place i used my large house as the town crafting hub
or a place to hold an in game party

housing could serve many functions if done correctly

it also gives the player a sense of accomplishment as well as a sense of actual ownership of part of there game world

and it gives crafters a sense of the ability to actually influence a change in the game world
 with a sort of "i built that" factor

what i have not seen done correctly concerning housing is upkeep

what they should do is ounce it goes derelict and with out payments

the house/building should disappear in 1-3 weeks after maintenance runs out

and there should be a max of 1-3 months maintenance you can pay on a house at any given time so that it will eventually disappear ounce neglected

while i love swg's housing and most players took advantage of it they did not do this and ended up with people who purposely built there full allotment of housing and paid years worth of maintenance on them and left them derelict

I would probably take exactly the opposite view.

The next MMO release will contain some or all of these features :

Crafting
Housing
Levelling
Gear
Experience
Quests
Talents/Skills
Dungeon crawling

What the next MMORPG should contain is none of the above. The entire MMO industry has been reskinning Everquest for too many years and it will continue doing so until one game designer can make a leap of imagination to create a brand new original game.

Everquest is a great game but it is time to move on.

---

Originally posted by Muppetier
I would probably take exactly the opposite view.
The next MMO release will contain some or all of these features :
Crafting
Housing
Levelling
Gear
Experience
Quests
Talents/Skills
Dungeon crawling
What the next MMORPG should contain is none of the above. The entire MMO industry has been reskinning Everquest for too many years and it will continue doing so until one game designer can make a leap of imagination to create a brand new original game.
Everquest is a great game but it is time to move on.

---

I wouldn't see much of a game if you remove all of the above there. Levels AND Talents/Skills? The game would just be pure role-playing without any quantitative measuring stick to gauge any sort of character progression. A type of game without any listed above will be very niche and arguably too niche to even become self-sustainable (obviously based off speculation).

I think what the article lends itself to overall as a message is important and the major shortfall of this genre (despite how much I really do love the genre). The emphasis on combat and various forms of progression is inherent in most if not all of the most recent games. It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well.

These MMORPG's currently seem to be played for the most part as big multiplayer single player games and once the content is exhausted (or the player is), they'll move on to the next MMORPG to rinse and repeat. That's my basic impression at least since few MMORPG's are being built with more emphasis for the long-term.

"I wouldn't see much of a game if you remove all of the above there. Levels AND Talents/Skills? The game would just be pure role-playing without any quantitative measuring stick to gauge any sort of character progression. A type of game without any listed above will be very niche and arguably too niche to even become self-sustainable (obviously based off speculation)."

Chess. (for example)

Has none of the above but is not a niche game. Now I know Chess is not an MMO but the leap of imagination that is required is to come up with an MMO that is NOT everquest.

I wish you would send this to Turbine since they seem to forget these points more and more.

Originally posted by BigJohnny

Ok, so I'm gonna ask a question here, and I'm not trolling, I really wanna know.

What is housing good for?

I've been playing MMOs for almost a decade now, and none of them had player housing. The closest thing I've seen was Warhammer's guild area that was in-accessible unless you were in a guild.

But I have never wished I had a house, or a room or whatever. So I don't get why people want housing so much. If anything, it seems to me like housing would hurt the game. You'd have less people in the city, less people PvPing, just... less people.

So, what's the attraction there?

I remember once me and some friends were saying it would be fun if our guild could own a guild-hall of sorts that was instanced, would be accessible only to guild-members, could issue temporary invites to non-guildies, and had a dueling area. Then we can make an invite-only event and advertise it for a certain day and time, where we'd run a dueling tournament. And also gamble on the winners and whatnot. This sounds like fun. But this is also PvP (the dueling part), and it has interactions with other player in an in-game atmosphere. Not just sitting around drinking tea and talking about our day.

So would a feature like this be considered good by those of you that want player-housing? Or is player housing in your minds only a personal private space that you can fully customize?

Imagine going over a hill and finding an entirely player made city with player merchants, player farms and workshops, player designed quests (get 10 pieces of wood), and player activites (some sort of festival). And then you can decide to go attack everyone and kill them all and burn the city down. Or build your own house and contribute to the city. And then people come from around the world to trade or visit you. Thats the attraction.  You have PVP, PVE, economic activity, time sink, money fountains, just generally player made production.

hey Jon i agree whit you  on the tutorial thing, i played a bit on eveonline tutorial and i find it quite good but again i already played the game four years

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by hogscraper

 Very good article!

The only one I disagreed with is the one I think hurts more mmos than it helps and that's housing. While giving someone a small plot of land and some things to do with it definitely help to draw that player into that world, it hurts the community. Every player that is spending time in housing is spending time in an MMO away from everyone else playing. The housing in DAOC wrecked the cities because it gave the players in that game every reason to not go the main cities. They went so far as to give bonuses to crafting to people that stayed in housing. When the game was young the cities were full of people. Need something crafted and dozens of people were there to help. Baddies invading your lands? jump into a few locations and /yell and have an entire army ready to go in a few minutes. After housing went live a large % of the population disappeared from nearly every area in the game and it felt empty. When a new player comes along and a game feels empty or they have a problem and noone is around to help, they move on. If the game devs put enough time into giving players things to do as part of a community there shouldn't be any time for housing anyway.

 

This really depends on implementation. The problem with your example is that the devs gave players an incentive to leave the active community and made housing an unsocial feature. That's just a bad implementation.

Housing shouldn't be a private place to do things that can be done elsewhere, like crafting, it should really be a means of furthering the customisation of your character and expressing yourself (as well as showing off your accomplishments).

I remember in EQ2 they made interesting use of the feature through the broker system. If you went to a player's house to buy an item off them it would be 20% cheaper than if you bought it through the broker. This made it a bit more social since I'd often be going around and seeing what other people have done with their houses whilst I was shopping. It doesn't solve the problem you're describing but it's a step in the right direction.

I remember my huge collection of books as well, all lined up neatly on my shelves... every single one was a complete book that could be opened and read, many of them obtained via quests or creature mastery and developing the lore of the game world. I didn't read all of them, but just knowing that they were there and could be read really made the world feel that much deeper.

The key, as with all MMO features, is to integrate it into other systems. Crafting always feels 'tacked on' unless it's integrated into the economy properly. It's the same with housing, it won't work unless they work it into the social systems of the game, giving players reasons to visit other players' houses and involving it with other aspects of gameplay.

I was about to reply to hogscraper on this as well. However, after reading your response, Alberel, I no longer feel the need to. You pretty much made the point I was thinking. Well done!
 

RE: Housing

I find housing connects players with their world in a 'deeper' sense that their alone character (Avatar).  There is something to be said about displaying your items, showing your style.  In many ways, I find housing is what makes me feel more 'at home' in the game.

Part of what made SWG so much fun for me at the start was POB player ships... ships you can walk around in, decorate, and even fight with.   So not only did you have planetery housing, there was(is) ship-based housing.

Now I know the uber-PvP hard-core 24x7 only-going-to-fight crowd really only needs a bank/storage terminal for stims and such, but part of the social aspect of being a MMO is having an impact on your environment.

Plopping a house down.. making your own town.. or being mayor of a city is definately making an impact on your environment and are probably one of the strongest reasons to have them in the game.. it promotes community.

STO has the 'possiblity' of ship interior customization.  Its a start, but I hope they don't just leave it like that and never touch the possiblity of crew quarters, ship boarding, etc. 

Ideally, a 'housing' system should appeal to both the player-based city... as well as the NPC-city based housing.. like instanced apartments/condo's.   I don't see a reason why both couldn't exist with right controls.   There are some characters I'd prefer live in a metro/NPC/city.. and others I'd like to put in shack in the back-woods... and others with their own estate.

Guild-based 'team' storage is ok.. convenient for shared storage.. but there is still something more personal about having your own 'home'... be that a building, a condo (instance), or a ship.

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Deewe

 

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)
 
Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.
 

---

i respectfully disagree
 
i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out
it even got fun
swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree
just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system
iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

---

 
Sorry, I think you miss understood me. I really like crafting and I can say I had my share of it in SWG. Although there were a few issues with it.

• It was a click fest, so much that some players used 3rd party macro software to level it, even before the holo-grind
• Once there was a "master in town" most lower level items became useless, meaning others leveling crafter would craft then delete items
• Managing all the resources was a pain, no wonder players asked for an ability to combine resources, better inventory management and storage facilities. Remember the houses filled with backpacks full of resources? Most crafters had many houses for just for this. Managing harvester was a real job. No surprise players asked for a way to at least check remotely the status of the harvesters, or even to be able to maintain them with droids. Not the least the harvester UI was poorly done, thus making crafter use self made macro to tend them.

 
One thing I liked in SWG was the ability to customize and colorize the item names :)

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well

---

QFE
 
 
 

Yes yes yes! Absolutely agree on the list, especially #1. I refer to that Strictly Social dynamic as "Putterability" or "Retention Gameplay"--how one can putter about and just be in the world. That is so important to keeping people involved, content and immersed within the whole of a gameworld (which directly translates to: customers retained), and that dynamic is so woefully neglected by developers.

Originally posted by Deewe

 

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Deewe

 

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)
 
Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.
 

---

i respectfully disagree
 
i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out
it even got fun
swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree
just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system
iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

---

 
Sorry, I think you miss understood me. I really like crafting and I can say I had my share of it in SWG. Although there were a few issues with it.

• It was a click fest, so much that some players used 3rd party macro software to level it, even before the holo-grind
• Once there was a "master in town" most lower level items became useless, meaning others leveling crafter would craft then delete items
• Managing all the resources was a pain, no wonder players asked for an ability to combine resources, better inventory management and storage facilities. Remember the houses filled with backpacks full of resources? Most crafters had many houses for just for this. Managing harvester was a real job. No surprise players asked for a way to at least check remotely the structure of the harvesters, of not even be able to maintain them with droids. Not the least the harvester UI was poorly done, thus making crafter use self made macro to tend them.

 
One thing I liked in SWG was the ability to customize and colorize the item names :)

 

 

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well

---

 

QFE
 
 
 

perhaps i did misunderstand i thought you were trying to say you hated the swg crafting system

theres so many people today that don't know what the hell there talking about that bash swg for the sake of bashing it

it gets hard to recognize someone who is talking from actual experience
and for that i apologize

i actually looked forward to going to my harvesters every other day and never used droids to do it but then again its the intricacies that thrill me in an mmo

as for using backpacks to sort mats i had cabinets lol

running 2 crafting classes and CH was great with the cabinets that is :P

as for not making lower level stuff i usually made anything and everything i could especially after becoming master in both of my crafting professions but then again i have the toy maker play style (i understand thats kind of rare)

and after all you had to be certified to use something before it was truly use full so people dont stick to just the high end stuff because it was next to worthless till they could use it :P

so no mater the level most stuff was always in demand

there really wasn't anything i didnt like about swg crafting

hell even mat obtaining always kept me on the look out for the better mats

as for the 3rd party crap ya i was aware of it and wanted to personally go and kill any one who used it cause in my mind that's cheating

as for using houses for just crafting storage  i never did that

i had a guild hall i used as a crafting hub for my town and it was well decorated and furnished

and my large house i used to display things and hang trophies and other weird thing i found throughout the game :D

in the end before the NGE apocalypse hit i was one of the more sought out architect/ droid engineers on my server
and had ties to many of my customers who kept coming back to buy from me or my fellow guild and/or city members

man i miss it  sorry about suddenly reminiscing there lol :P

any who glad to meat a fellow crafter :D

and i still say out of all the games i have played i have yet to find one with a crafting system as good and as relevant as swg's

Good list in the article.

It seems like I've written posts on different forums many times in the last couple years specifically about your 1,3 & 5 (I think it was)... Social, Housing and Crafting.  I've been mainly thinking the same things. Social: definately need fun stuff that isn't all about killing stuff - especially after playing the game for several months.  Housing: always question why it's left out time and time again when it's always made very clear by the interested playerbases that it's highly desired.  Crafting: dear Lord, somebody come up with a crafting system that isn't completely boring, useless, or a major chore -- and one that doesn't just make players go kill yet more mobs.  We're already killing mobs for every other part of the game so can it just be a little bit more independent? 

Perfect list! Finaly someone who understand what MMO are at the core.

I have never understood player housing.  I think only girls want to play house.  Or, maybe because it is so limited.  If we had to dig the basement out, put up the drywall, or pour the concrete I'd probably get it.  COH/COV has base building.  Someone said AoC took this idea an improved on it.  I've never played the pvp part where they come shoot it up or burn it down.  That could suck after spending all that time building it, but maybe if you get points everytime the enemy destroys each chair, lamp, or couch, people would go for it.  Maybe if there was a reason for housing, like...player need to go to the bathroom #2 NOW!  EQ2 uses guild halls where you can use portals to travel places faster, but it's probably not worth the gold they have to pay for it.  Maybe steal some ideas from the SIMS.  idk, I've never played that either.  But that's kind'a a girl's game too.  Houses attract girl gamers??  It's just marketing?  Nah, girls aren't stupid.  Guys are easy to trick.  Look at Wow.  Flash some bright lights maybe some cleavage and they are glued to the screen for years.  I don't think girls are falling for that, no good evil marketers.  Am I wrong?

With housing, it does add another layer of persistence for the players and it's a place they can refer to as various things like a "keep" or a "hideout". I don't think housing for players is entirely necessary, but a guild hall would be nice, probably easy to implement via instancing (yeah yeah, I know that'll hurt the "immersion" for some of the pacifists) to avoid people from having to compete for "lots" like in UO and SWG.

Overall, it's something else a player can work on and do while experiencing a fantasy world since the major selling point behind MMORPG's was always about persistence and it shouldn't just be limited to character and gear progression. This goes back to focusing on the social side of the MMORPG rather than the combat/rewards side, after all, the major advantage that MMORPG's have above all other genre's is its social side.

Well they are indeed too underrated. But it is not enough to just have them, they also must be corelated. I formulated my ideas as a sort of reply in my own article, here:

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3400534/thread/269972#3400534

Originally posted by gogogogone

I have never understood player housing.  I think only girls want to play house.  Or, maybe because it is so limited.  If we had to dig the basement out, put up the drywall, or pour the concrete I'd probably get it.  COH/COV has base building.  Someone said AoC took this idea an improved on it.  I've never played the pvp part where they come shoot it up or burn it down.  That could suck after spending all that time building it, but maybe if you get points everytime the enemy destroys each chair, lamp, or couch, people would go for it.  Maybe if there was a reason for housing, like...player need to go to the bathroom #2 NOW!  EQ2 uses guild halls where you can use portals to travel places faster, but it's probably not worth the gold they have to pay for it.  Maybe steal some ideas from the SIMS.  idk, I've never played that either.  But that's kind'a a girl's game too.  Houses attract girl gamers??  It's just marketing?  Nah, girls aren't stupid.  Guys are easy to trick.  Look at Wow.  Flash some bright lights maybe some cleavage and they are glued to the screen for years.  I don't think girls are falling for that, no good evil marketers.  Am I wrong?

I'm with ya here,  I played a couple that had housing and just used as storage, looked like my office after a while.  Last time I played coh/v the base raids were never available, are they even live yet?   The comment about having to use the bathroom made me laugh.  Now if the housing does attract more females hell ya im all for that.   As far as the virtual female eyecandy in mmo's,  First thing I check out is how realistic and perfect the parts are.   They are getting better and better, some breath.  Lotro was last male char I made, all male since eq, ao, swg on.  For me mmo's are entertainement like movies only interactive.  I would rather watch Tomb Raider or any Female then Conan or James Bond in the same action scenerios.

Originally posted by Shreddi

Originally posted by gogogogone

I have never understood player housing.  I think only girls want to play house.  Or, maybe because it is so limited.  If we had to dig the basement out, put up the drywall, or pour the concrete I'd probably get it.  COH/COV has base building.  Someone said AoC took this idea an improved on it.  I've never played the pvp part where they come shoot it up or burn it down.  That could suck after spending all that time building it, but maybe if you get points everytime the enemy destroys each chair, lamp, or couch, people would go for it.  Maybe if there was a reason for housing, like...player need to go to the bathroom #2 NOW!  EQ2 uses guild halls where you can use portals to travel places faster, but it's probably not worth the gold they have to pay for it.  Maybe steal some ideas from the SIMS.  idk, I've never played that either.  But that's kind'a a girl's game too.  Houses attract girl gamers??  It's just marketing?  Nah, girls aren't stupid.  Guys are easy to trick.  Look at Wow.  Flash some bright lights maybe some cleavage and they are glued to the screen for years.  I don't think girls are falling for that, no good evil marketers.  Am I wrong?

 

I'm with ya here,  I played a couple that had housing and just used as storage, looked like my office after a while.  Last time I played coh/v the base raids were never available, are they even live yet?   The comment about having to use the bathroom made me laugh.  Now if the housing does attract more females hell ya im all for that.   As far as the virtual female eyecandy in mmo's,  First thing I check out is how realistic and perfect the parts are.   They are getting better and better, some breath.  Lotro was last male char I made, all male since eq, ao, swg on.  For me mmo's are entertainement like movies only interactive.  I would rather watch Tomb Raider or any Female then Conan or James Bond in the same action scenerios.

The simple ability to purchase a room or stall in a city to store your stuff or display your wares would be all thats needed. More substational is the abilit for groups of players to build housing where they can meet, craft, store things, and be safe. It makes sense more in some games (eve) than others (AOC).

Originally posted by Jairoe03

With housing, it does add another layer of persistence for the players and it's a place they can refer to as various things like a "keep" or a "hideout". I don't think housing for players is entirely necessary, but a guild hall would be nice, probably easy to implement via instancing (yeah yeah, I know that'll hurt the "immersion" for some of the pacifists) to avoid people from having to compete for "lots" like in UO and SWG.

Overall, it's something else a player can work on and do while experiencing a fantasy world since the major selling point behind MMORPG's was always about persistence and it shouldn't just be limited to character and gear progression. This goes back to focusing on the social side of the MMORPG rather than the combat/rewards side, after all, the major advantage that MMORPG's have above all other genre's is its social side.

actually you didnt have to compete for lots in SWG you could pretty much put down any ware on the map as long as it was atleast 10k away from the nearest city or poi

as for static housing iv always hated it i never used my FFXI or EQ2 housing for anything more then storage because people couldn't randomly come to see it and it servers no other real in game purpose

 i much prefer being able to put down a physical building  then to have a static apartment like housing

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Deewe

 

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Deewe

 

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)
 
Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.
 

---

i respectfully disagree
 
i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out
it even got fun
swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree
just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system
iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

---

 
Sorry, I think you miss understood me. I really like crafting and I can say I had my share of it in SWG. Although there were a few issues with it.

• It was a click fest, so much that some players used 3rd party macro software to level it, even before the holo-grind
• Once there was a "master in town" most lower level items became useless, meaning others leveling crafter would craft then delete items
• Managing all the resources was a pain, no wonder players asked for an ability to combine resources, better inventory management and storage facilities. Remember the houses filled with backpacks full of resources? Most crafters had many houses for just for this. Managing harvester was a real job. No surprise players asked for a way to at least check remotely the structure of the harvesters, of not even be able to maintain them with droids. Not the least the harvester UI was poorly done, thus making crafter use self made macro to tend them.

 
One thing I liked in SWG was the ability to customize and colorize the item names :)

 

 

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well

---

 

QFE
 
 
 

 

 

 

perhaps i did misunderstand i thought you were trying to say you hated the swg crafting system

 

theres so many people today that don't know what the hell there talking about that bash swg for the sake of bashing it

it gets hard to recognize someone who is talking from actual experience
and for that i apologize

 

i actually looked forward to going to my harvesters every other day and never used droids to do it but then again its the intricacies that thrill me in an mmo

as for using backpacks to sort mats i had cabinets lol

running 2 crafting classes and CH was great with the cabinets that is :P

as for not making lower level stuff i usually made anything and everything i could especially after becoming master in both of my crafting professions but then again i have the toy maker play style (i understand thats kind of rare)

and after all you had to be certified to use something before it was truly use full so people dont stick to just the high end stuff because it was next to worthless till they could use it :P

so no mater the level most stuff was always in demand

there really wasn't anything i didnt like about swg crafting

hell even mat obtaining always kept me on the look out for the better mats

as for the 3rd party crap ya i was aware of it and wanted to personally go and kill any one who used it cause in my mind that's cheating

 

as for using houses for just crafting storage  i never did that

i had a guild hall i used as a crafting hub for my town and it was well decorated and furnished

and my large house i used to display things and hang trophies and other weird thing i found throughout the game :D

 

in the end before the NGE apocalypse hit i was one of the more sought out architect/ droid engineers on my server
and had ties to many of my customers who kept coming back to buy from me or my fellow guild and/or city members

man i miss it  sorry about suddenly reminiscing there lol :P

 

any who glad to meat a fellow crafter :D

and i still say out of all the games i have played i have yet to find one with a crafting system as good and as relevant as swg's

 

 

Memories sometimes hurts.

I didn't play all MMO but since SWG I didn't see any one that had such a good system: good resources gathering, crafting experimentation system and resources stats, ability to choose and colorize the name of the end product, name of the creator automatically added to the item, looted top end components and not the least player made economy, from dedicated crafter to dedicated merchants through dedicated resources gatherers.

As many others I would bite for a simple carbon copy of SWG system, but I would enhance it with a few features:

• Consumables: ammunitions, clothe dyes, batteries for shield generators, armors layers....
• Miner (or farmer) profession, that among others things has the ability to mix/experiment resources of the same kind
• Better harverster UI
• Better resources sorting, add tabs and filters
• Ability to fully repair anything, with a (huge?) money sink and crafter made repair kits.
• Ability to put stacks of items for sale with a per unit price and choice of the buyer to get how much he wants.
• Dedicated storage building

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

With housing, it does add another layer of persistence for the players and it's a place they can refer to as various things like a "keep" or a "hideout". I don't think housing for players is entirely necessary, but a guild hall would be nice, probably easy to implement via instancing (yeah yeah, I know that'll hurt the "immersion" for some of the pacifists) to avoid people from having to compete for "lots" like in UO and SWG.
Overall, it's something else a player can work on and do while experiencing a fantasy world since the major selling point behind MMORPG's was always about persistence and it shouldn't just be limited to character and gear progression. This goes back to focusing on the social side of the MMORPG rather than the combat/rewards side, after all, the major advantage that MMORPG's have above all other genre's is its social side.

---

actually you didnt have to compete for lots in SWG you could pretty much put down any ware on the map as long as it was atleast 10k away from the nearest city or poi
 

as for static housing iv always hated it i never used my FFXI or EQ2 housing for anything more then storage because people couldn't randomly come to see it and it servers no other real in game purpose
 i much prefer being able to put down a physical building  then to have a static apartment like housing

---

As for the lots inside the city which is always in the most convenient of places. Yes, you had to compete. I suppose you weren't a Master Weaponsmith looking for an ideal spot to sell your wares though -_- Anything with limited amounts of "physical space" even within a virtual environment is going to lead to some form of competition for "lots" or space. Just like in UO, it occurred in SWG. Shoot, I had a whole player paid off just so I can have his lots to use to farm ideal resource spots. I'm pretty damn sure there was some form of competing for lots in there especially as a crafter.

This article really drives the point home:

Sandboxes rule and themeparks drool.

 I find it ironic that the first thing that came to my mind when reading this article was City of Eternals. Sure, it's casual and it's browser based, but hell, it has more of these features than most MMOs do.

Reading the posts in this articles really shows the affect WoW has had on this genre. There are a startling number of people who have never played a sandbox and have never experienced player housing, open worlds, GvG, basically everything the genre once stood for. I think a sandbox game that captures the brilliance of games like UO and SWG(Before sony changed it, of course) is set up to do very well in the market right now.

I wouldn't see much of a game if you remove all of the above there. Levels AND Talents/Skills? The game would just be pure role-playing without any quantitative measuring stick to gauge any sort of character progression. A type of game without any listed above will be very niche and arguably too niche to even become self-sustainable (obviously based off speculation).

---

Let's speculate a bit:

What if games kept track of actual game experience in the form of how many times you swung various kinds of weapons, how often you cast a spell, or how often you performed a skill?  Then, without ever asigning an experience point value to your character, without ever asigning a level to your character, simply allowed you to get better.  This would be somewhat similar to real life.

You might be hot stuff with a short sword but when it comes to swinging a battle axe, you might very much resemble a newb. 

Instead of having a character class, you might have a long list of skills you can choose to learn from.  You might go into a town and find a man who is good at that skill, and apprentice yourself.  You might spend some time in classes learning that skill.  Then, when you went out into the world you could practice the skill by doing it, and get better at it.

Why do we need arbitrarilly designated experience points and levels to play these games?  Seems to me that you can do away with it fairly easily.

I was hoping that Champions Online might bite the bullet and try to implement a system similar to Champions Face to Face by ignoring levels and character classes.  They didn't.  Sigh.  When will devs break out of the basic experience grind/level grind thought pattern?  I think the players are ready for it, even if the devs don't think we can handle it.

---

What might be the results in game of such a departure from the norm?

Instead of being The Warrior, The Tanker, The Fighter, The Magician, The Necromancer, you would all be Yourselves. 

You might enter a group by saying, "Hey, I'm James, I swing a mean broadsword and can cast a few combat spells that enhance our ability to defeat some types of monsters like werewolves.  I can also use a Composit Recurve Bow, and I'm good at finding food and other things in wilderness situations, and I can sneak around pretty well."

OK, it's a lot easier to say "Hey, I'm James, L6 Ranger".  The thing is, it's a lot more fun to say the former, and very emersion detrimental to say the latter.

---

You might search for members for a group by listing what skills you think you might need, and having the search tool list the available players in terms of best skill to least skill in those areas.  You might send out a few feelers to those who you think would want to team with you and check it out.  Maybe the very best wouldn't want to go with you, but you would not want to choose from the lowest available yourself.  Maybe you could add an additional search perameter of "those with skills near my own skills".

What I'm getting at is Levels and experience points is old school.  Let's see something new.

---

Originally posted by Beggly
I wouldn't see much of a game if you remove all of the above there. Levels AND Talents/Skills? The game would just be pure role-playing without any quantitative measuring stick to gauge any sort of character progression. A type of game without any listed above will be very niche and arguably too niche to even become self-sustainable (obviously based off speculation).
---
Let's speculate a bit:
What if games kept track of actual game experience in the form of how many times you swung various kinds of weapons, how often you cast a spell, or how often you performed a skill?  Then, without ever asigning an experience point value to your character, without ever asigning a level to your character, simply allowed you to get better.  This would be somewhat similar to real life.
You might be hot stuff with a short sword but when it comes to swinging a battle axe, you might very much resemble a newb. 
Instead of having a character class, you might have a long list of skills you can choose to learn from.  You might go into a town and find a man who is good at that skill, and apprentice yourself.  You might spend some time in classes learning that skill.  Then, when you went out into the world you could practice the skill by doing it, and get better at it.
Why do we need arbitrarilly designated experience points and levels to play these games?  Seems to me that you can do away with it fairly easily.
I was hoping that Champions Online might bite the bullet and try to implement a system similar to Champions Face to Face by ignoring levels and character classes.  They didn't.  Sigh.  When will devs break out of the basic experience grind/level grind thought pattern?  I think the players are ready for it, even if the devs don't think we can handle it.
---
What might be the results in game of such a departure from the norm?
Instead of being The Warrior, The Tanker, The Fighter, The Magician, The Necromancer, you would all be Yourselves. 
You might enter a group by saying, "Hey, I'm James, I swing a mean broadsword and can cast a few combat spells that enhance our ability to defeat some types of monsters like werewolves.  I can also use a Composit Recurve Bow, and I'm good at finding food and other things in wilderness situations, and I can sneak around pretty well."
OK, it's a lot easier to say "Hey, I'm James, L6 Ranger".  The thing is, it's a lot more fun to say the former, and very emersion detrimental to say the latter.
---
You might search for members for a group by listing what skills you think you might need, and having the search tool list the available players in terms of best skill to least skill in those areas.  You might send out a few feelers to those who you think would want to team with you and check it out.  Maybe the very best wouldn't want to go with you, but you would not want to choose from the lowest available yourself.  Maybe you could add an additional search perameter of "those with skills near my own skills".
What I'm getting at is Levels and experience points is old school.  Let's see something new.
 

---

I pointed out Leveling AND Skills. I was merely saying you need some quantitative way to measure a character's progression or most people will have a hard time finding a direction to take. Look at all the popular MMO's and see that every single one has a way to measure some form of progression. Even EVE has skills that measures your abilities. I think you emphasized the fact that I was pointing out the removal of levels, but forgotten about the simultaneous removal of skills. It simply cannot be done AND expected to profit. Let's face it, the average MMO player needs the game to help point them in directions and to an extent, I don't blame them. Taking out character progression will just turn the game into another Second Life or Love or something similar.

I think a game could have no levels and no skills, and still be interesting.

I just think you gotta separate in-combat progression tracking from out-of-combat tracking. If you measure progression out of combat, then really there's no need to also then measure it in-combat. Which is essentially what levels are. They measure your progress, then when you do fight, you don't have to worry about individual skills. But even that's not necessary.

Take a look for example at WoW's arena. Forget that it sucks for a moment, I think the core idea is good. It has a ranking system where if you win, you get points, and if you lose, you lose points. So your character's progression could be measured by how much you've increased your ranking over a certain amount of time. So what's the point of also measuring a character's level on top of that? Or skill with a weapon/spell? It's just not needed.

Another great example is the economy. Which that, coupled with social stuff like housing, was the point of this article. But that's already measured perfectly! It's how much gold you have, and what you can buy with it. If all a player cares about is the social/economic aspects of the game, then why is it important that he's also level67? It just doesn't matter. His progression is gold. He started out at level0 and now he's at level 100k gold.

So really, if you have a little system to track progression like that for every aspect of the game, there's no need to have levels, skills or classes at all.

My opinion anyways. Cheers.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

With housing, it does add another layer of persistence for the players and it's a place they can refer to as various things like a "keep" or a "hideout". I don't think housing for players is entirely necessary, but a guild hall would be nice, probably easy to implement via instancing (yeah yeah, I know that'll hurt the "immersion" for some of the pacifists) to avoid people from having to compete for "lots" like in UO and SWG.
Overall, it's something else a player can work on and do while experiencing a fantasy world since the major selling point behind MMORPG's was always about persistence and it shouldn't just be limited to character and gear progression. This goes back to focusing on the social side of the MMORPG rather than the combat/rewards side, after all, the major advantage that MMORPG's have above all other genre's is its social side.

---

 

actually you didnt have to compete for lots in SWG you could pretty much put down any ware on the map as long as it was atleast 10k away from the nearest city or poi
 

as for static housing iv always hated it i never used my FFXI or EQ2 housing for anything more then storage because people couldn't randomly come to see it and it servers no other real in game purpose
 i much prefer being able to put down a physical building  then to have a static apartment like housing

---

 

As for the lots inside the city which is always in the most convenient of places. Yes, you had to compete. I suppose you weren't a Master Weaponsmith looking for an ideal spot to sell your wares though -_- Anything with limited amounts of "physical space" even within a virtual environment is going to lead to some form of competition for "lots" or space. Just like in UO, it occurred in SWG. Shoot, I had a whole player paid off just so I can have his lots to use to farm ideal resource spots. I'm pretty damn sure there was some form of competing for lots in there especially as a crafter.

nope not a weapon smith

but an architect / droid enginear :P

now i never played uo   and i may of bean missing your meaning  when i responded  i did think you were talking about  a system like in vanguard ware the spots for houses were pre designated 

i was on ahazi (at least i think that was the server name)  and there was always room to put down  then again i didnt stick around the main city on tatooween but bestine

i did move several times when ever i updated my housing and it really didnt seem to mater how close i came to the city or how far people still came to buy my stuff  and eventually i ended up running a city not to far from bestine 

maybe i just got lucky which is a definite possibility  but it didnt seem that bad to me

For myself it was very competitive, I had to pay for a spot inside a well established city. Resource spots were based on geography so spots became crucial and were quickly taken if you weren't all over the new random resources. I would say as a crafter, location was very important commercially and industrially on my server.

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Deewe

 

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Deewe

 

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)
 
Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.
 

---

i respectfully disagree
 
i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out
it even got fun
swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree
just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system
iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

---

 
Sorry, I think you miss understood me. I really like crafting and I can say I had my share of it in SWG. Although there were a few issues with it.

• It was a click fest, so much that some players used 3rd party macro software to level it, even before the holo-grind
• Once there was a "master in town" most lower level items became useless, meaning others leveling crafter would craft then delete items
• Managing all the resources was a pain, no wonder players asked for an ability to combine resources, better inventory management and storage facilities. Remember the houses filled with backpacks full of resources? Most crafters had many houses for just for this. Managing harvester was a real job. No surprise players asked for a way to at least check remotely the structure of the harvesters, of not even be able to maintain them with droids. Not the least the harvester UI was poorly done, thus making crafter use self made macro to tend them.

 
One thing I liked in SWG was the ability to customize and colorize the item names :)

 

 

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well

---

 

QFE
 
 
 

 

 

 

perhaps i did misunderstand i thought you were trying to say you hated the swg crafting system

 

theres so many people today that don't know what the hell there talking about that bash swg for the sake of bashing it

it gets hard to recognize someone who is talking from actual experience
and for that i apologize

 

i actually looked forward to going to my harvesters every other day and never used droids to do it but then again its the intricacies that thrill me in an mmo

as for using backpacks to sort mats i had cabinets lol

running 2 crafting classes and CH was great with the cabinets that is :P

as for not making lower level stuff i usually made anything and everything i could especially after becoming master in both of my crafting professions but then again i have the toy maker play style (i understand thats kind of rare)

and after all you had to be certified to use something before it was truly use full so people dont stick to just the high end stuff because it was next to worthless till they could use it :P

so no mater the level most stuff was always in demand

there really wasn't anything i didnt like about swg crafting

hell even mat obtaining always kept me on the look out for the better mats

as for the 3rd party crap ya i was aware of it and wanted to personally go and kill any one who used it cause in my mind that's cheating

 

as for using houses for just crafting storage  i never did that

i had a guild hall i used as a crafting hub for my town and it was well decorated and furnished

and my large house i used to display things and hang trophies and other weird thing i found throughout the game :D

 

in the end before the NGE apocalypse hit i was one of the more sought out architect/ droid engineers on my server
and had ties to many of my customers who kept coming back to buy from me or my fellow guild and/or city members

man i miss it  sorry about suddenly reminiscing there lol :P

 

any who glad to meat a fellow crafter :D

and i still say out of all the games i have played i have yet to find one with a crafting system as good and as relevant as swg's

 

 

Memories sometimes hurts.

 

I didn't play all MMO but since SWG I didn't see any one that had such a good system: good resources gathering, crafting experimentation system and resources stats, ability to choose and colorize the name of the end product, name of the creator automatically added to the item, looted top end components and not the least player made economy, from dedicated crafter to dedicated merchants through dedicated resources gatherers.

 

As many others I would bite for a simple carbon copy of SWG system, but I would enhance it with a few features:

• Consumables: ammunitions, clothe dyes, batteries for shield generators, armors layers....
• Miner (or farmer) profession, that among others things has the ability to mix/experiment resources of the same kind
• Better harverster UI
• Better resources sorting, add tabs and filters
• Ability to fully repair anything, with a (huge?) money sink and crafter made repair kits.
• Ability to put stacks of items for sale with a per unit price and choice of the buyer to get how much he wants.
• Dedicated storage building

same hear doesn't mater if its fantasy or scifi as long as its systems are similar to swg's especially the way they had you pretty much tailor make your character's profession that i felt was the most awesome part of swg that and its crafting system and its housing system and its ch ...... there i go again

i just wish the ones i keep an eye on that look to be coming close would stop going open pvp lol :P
as i avoid open and forced pvp like the plague lol :P
then again i did try the few i was watching and they didn't even come close to what swg offered

hey great conversation btw its very rare that i ever get this involved in a thread on any forum :D

Originally posted by Jairoe03

For myself it was very competitive, I had to pay for a spot inside a well established city. Resource spots were based on geography so spots became crucial and were quickly taken if you weren't all over the new random resources. I would say as a crafter, location was very important commercially and industrially on my server.

resource spots they were always random so i didnt care ware i was in comparison to them and often went 50+ k away from my house to put down my harvys and often on different planets all together

its one of the things i actually looked forward to is moving my harvys it was like my own little adventure but then again i was kind of crazy and over dedicated when placing them so i didnt care how far and how long it took me lol :P
then again by being that involved in it i always was able to find a spot for them and usually in a not so crowded area :D so it made them easier to find infact often mine would be the only ones any ware near ware i put them lol

so i do admit competition was there for harvy placement but i tended to find ways to avoid it all together

---

Originally posted by inle

resource spots they were always random so i didnt care ware i was in comparison to them and often went 50+ k away from my house to put down my harvys and often on different planets all together
its one of the things i actually looked forward to is moving my harvys it was like my own little adventure but then again i was kind of crazy and over dedicated when placing them so i didnt care how far and how long it took me lol :P
then again by being that involved in it i always was able to find a spot for them and usually in a not so crowded area :D so it made them easier to find infact often mine would be the only ones any ware near ware i put them lol
so i do admit competition was there for harvy placement but i tended to find ways to avoid it all together

---

Well, it became crucial enough for me. Actually, I bought a house that took up 8/10 lots and hired a newbie to use up all her lots for my resources. Taught her the basics behind my craft specifically how to identify resources and strategically place harvesters. I was generous enough to actually share half my profits and probably has to be one of the best example of player interaction within an MMORPG in my own experience. That newbie picked up a lot quicker than I thought and she became a pro at getting great resources for me very quickly (I would say less than a week). I don't think its that easily to bring something like that back, maybe in EVE, but then extends to my corporation who helps me out with resources and not limited to raw materials either, also to star base facilities etc. I think companies should find newer ways to encourage these types of "positive" interactions in more diverse ways (beyond crafting and even into combat).

Originally posted by BCuse

Good article.  I agree with all of them!

 

My big three are:

Housing

Crafting

Economy

what ever he said! Nice read, now we hope some developers acely does pay atension ;)

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Deewe

 

---

Originally posted by inle

---

Originally posted by Deewe

 

Interesting article, I was wondering how much you got form UO & SWG Pre-CU vets ;)
 
Before anything else there was too much griefiing in UO, for the casual gamer, and SWG was bit tedious, especially grinding crafting professions and managing all the resources gathering, more like an unpaid second work.
 

---

i respectfully disagree
 
i found swg's crafting system very easy to get used to ounce you put in 1 or 2 hrs of work to figure it out
it even got fun
swg had one of the greatest crafting systems out there if not the greatest witch i believe it was and most people i talk to who like crafting tend to agree
just because you dont like crafting doesn't mean people who do like crafting didnt like swg's crafting system
iv playd many mmo's in my time and none of the crafting systems compare to swg's

---

 
Sorry, I think you miss understood me. I really like crafting and I can say I had my share of it in SWG. Although there were a few issues with it.

• It was a click fest, so much that some players used 3rd party macro software to level it, even before the holo-grind
• Once there was a "master in town" most lower level items became useless, meaning others leveling crafter would craft then delete items
• Managing all the resources was a pain, no wonder players asked for an ability to combine resources, better inventory management and storage facilities. Remember the houses filled with backpacks full of resources? Most crafters had many houses for just for this. Managing harvester was a real job. No surprise players asked for a way to at least check remotely the structure of the harvesters, of not even be able to maintain them with droids. Not the least the harvester UI was poorly done, thus making crafter use self made macro to tend them.

 
One thing I liked in SWG was the ability to customize and colorize the item names :)

 

 

---

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

It's time for developers to look at these games from a more social angle and start catering to that end of the spectrum as well

---

 

QFE
 
 
 

 

 

 

perhaps i did misunderstand i thought you were trying to say you hated the swg crafting system

 

theres so many people today that don't know what the hell there talking about that bash swg for the sake of bashing it

it gets hard to recognize someone who is talking from actual experience
and for that i apologize

 

i actually looked forward to going to my harvesters every other day and never used droids to do it but then again its the intricacies that thrill me in an mmo

as for using backpacks to sort mats i had cabinets lol

running 2 crafting classes and CH was great with the cabinets that is :P

as for not making lower level stuff i usually made anything and everything i could especially after becoming master in both of my crafting professions but then again i have the toy maker play style (i understand thats kind of rare)

and after all you had to be certified to use something before it was truly use full so people dont stick to just the high end stuff because it was next to worthless till they could use it :P

so no mater the level most stuff was always in demand

there really wasn't anything i didnt like about swg crafting

hell even mat obtaining always kept me on the look out for the better mats

as for the 3rd party crap ya i was aware of it and wanted to personally go and kill any one who used it cause in my mind that's cheating

 

as for using houses for just crafting storage  i never did that

i had a guild hall i used as a crafting hub for my town and it was well decorated and furnished

and my large house i used to display things and hang trophies and other weird thing i found throughout the game :D

 

in the end before the NGE apocalypse hit i was one of the more sought out architect/ droid engineers on my server
and had ties to many of my customers who kept coming back to buy from me or my fellow guild and/or city members

man i miss it  sorry about suddenly reminiscing there lol :P

 

any who glad to meat a fellow crafter :D

and i still say out of all the games i have played i have yet to find one with a crafting system as good and as relevant as swg's

 

 

Memories sometimes hurts.

 

I didn't play all MMO but since SWG I didn't see any one that had such a good system: good resources gathering, crafting experimentation system and resources stats, ability to choose and colorize the name of the end product, name of the creator automatically added to the item, looted top end components and not the least player made economy, from dedicated crafter to dedicated merchants through dedicated resources gatherers.

 

As many others I would bite for a simple carbon copy of SWG system, but I would enhance it with a few features:

• Consumables: ammunitions, clothe dyes, batteries for shield generators, armors layers....
• Miner (or farmer) profession, that among others things has the ability to mix/experiment resources of the same kind
• Better harverster UI
• Better resources sorting, add tabs and filters
• Ability to fully repair anything, with a (huge?) money sink and crafter made repair kits.
• Ability to put stacks of items for sale with a per unit price and choice of the buyer to get how much he wants.
• Dedicated storage building

same hear doesn't mater if its fantasy or scifi as long as its systems are similar to swg's especially the way they had you pretty much tailor make your character's profession that i felt was the most awesome part of swg that and its crafting system and its housing system and its ch ...... there i go again

i just wish the ones i keep an eye on that look to be coming close would stop going open pvp lol :P
as i avoid open and forced pvp like the plague lol :P
then again i did try the few i was watching and they didn't even come close to what swg offered

hey great conversation btw its very rare that i ever get this involved in a thread on any forum :D

Argh Ch..., I knew someone would name it and BE isn't that far away either. That was a low blow ;)

BE was the most complex crafting profession /tiphat to the designer who created it. And thanks to Jeff Freeman for having actually created the ability to tame and grow up pets for CH.

SWG skill system was a grind fest but it let you be that pistoleer / cook if you wanted it to so. And that was fun, although I would have lowered the Xp need to re-master skill trees you once knew by some %, to encourage people try new templates, especially with one character per server only.

I discovered earthrise not so long ago and even if I raised an eyebrow at the open PvP feature there are many things that makes me lean towards it. Wait and see.

And thanks for stopping by!

I find it really interesting that so many people are interested in housing.

I played Vanguard briefly, but never got into the housing phase of the game.  I did get to tuor some of my friend's houses, however.

From my own point of view, I don't really need housing as a major portion of my gaming, however, it's fun when it is available.  I like my housing to actually do something for me.  I keep remembering the old pre-mmorpg game Might and Magic, which had a castle you could "build" as a reward for finishing your quests.  That was fun, in that it unlocked several useful things for the players as it got build.

As previously hinted, I like the superhero base building system in CoX, though that is generally an activity for more than one player at a time.

I must say I was disappointed in the Gulld Hall in Everquest.  I don't see why it could have not been an interactive system, rather than a static system.  It would have been nice to allow us to personalize the guild halls. 

Construction in a game might be interesting.  Mostly if it were not terribly restricted.  I'd love to have been able to go into the middle of West Karana, for instance, in Everquest, and build myself a little hovel, stock it with crafted items not available in the Karanas, and have fun.  But that is not available in EQ.  Heck, I'd just like to build a little hovel someplace, and see how long it takes some other player to come along and knock it down!

Originally posted by Beggly

I find it really interesting that so many people are interested in housing.

I played Vanguard briefly, but never got into the housing phase of the game.  I did get to tuor some of my friend's houses, however.

From my own point of view, I don't really need housing as a major portion of my gaming, however, it's fun when it is available.  I like my housing to actually do something for me.  I keep remembering the old pre-mmorpg game Might and Magic, which had a castle you could "build" as a reward for finishing your quests.  That was fun, in that it unlocked several useful things for the players as it got build.

As previously hinted, I like the superhero base building system in CoX, though that is generally an activity for more than one player at a time.

I must say I was disappointed in the Gulld Hall in Everquest.  I don't see why it could have not been an interactive system, rather than a static system.  It would have been nice to allow us to personalize the guild halls. 

Construction in a game might be interesting.  Mostly if it were not terribly restricted.  I'd love to have been able to go into the middle of West Karana, for instance, in Everquest, and build myself a little hovel, stock it with crafted items not available in the Karanas, and have fun.  But that is not available in EQ.  Heck, I'd just like to build a little hovel someplace, and see how long it takes some other player to come along and knock it down!

 

 

i love housing and i wish more games had it but

the only one to really pull off non-pvp based housing well was swg housing actually did have functions in swg

vanguard was ok but having it in predesignated areas  was kind of annoying and sad and they didnt add any real functions to it

and static housing like in ffxi or eq2 i find to be completely pointless

as for pvp based housing dont care one way or another as i dont care for pvp :P

'tis a good list. I would combine 'maleable world' with 'living world' ala swg resources for example.

Also wanted to add I bloody loved the FE tutorial, really well done imo.

I dont post often

This article is so true I had to. In other words. Theme park fairytales times are over. People grew up on WOW and now they are not in their fourteens. They are looking for a true virtual world. Where you can do much more stuff. Where you can breathe. Where you can look forward, not bound by pesky themepark restrictions. Ya Sandbox features are going to be demanded once again. WOW people just grew up and WOW simplycity is not enouch. Past themepark AAA titles are showing this trend. I am very glad for that.

long live the sandbox.

*stands up and does the slow 80's clap*  That was right on the money.  I think thats what games have been missing this whole time.  Yes the exp,loot and character developement are important but you need some thing to hold you there and make you see apart of the world.  Thats why FFXI was so great...good economy, housing, grouping was great.  The community was awesome.  I hope that devs really look at this!

Meh it seems these days its PUSH the product out and try and make a buck than forget about it. All these mmos that are coming out seem to be rushed out by the Publishers leaving the Developers looking bad. Its similar to reasturant biz...Said owner tells cook to put out a steak thats not cooked to order, cook protests, owner says its my business do what i say, cook sends it out, customer sees it-does not like it, tells the wait staff to take it back and do it properly, it comes back , owner takes it off the plate slaps it on the grill warms it up,gives it back to the cook to send back out, it goes back out to the customer,its cooked more-but it just does not look good or right now. Dont get me wrong every company needs to make there money,thats why they went into business,but how you apply your self and treat your product in the end will show. I know of a few developers that WOULD have liked to postpone a launch for a few more months of polish but could not do so cause Big Boy said shove it out the door. Game developing as a whole imo is going down hill and not up. its also like Fishing...i leave that analogy to you all :) .

Originally posted by Lathander81

*stands up and does the slow 80's clap*  That was right on the money.  I think thats what games have been missing this whole time.  Yes the exp,loot and character developement are important but you need some thing to hold you there and make you see apart of the world.  Thats why FFXI was so great...good economy, housing, grouping was great.  The community was awesome.  I hope that devs really look at this!

Yep I love FFXI for the same reason too, the best memories ive had playing any MMO, its just to bad there are not that many people on it any more, still a good game...lol im thinking of going back my self....honestly whats the point  in playing an MMO or online game if you dont like or want to play with other people.  Ive seen a few system where it auto teams u up with people and no one half the time talks in team chat, they do there thing, get it done, leave..examples WAR,STO.

Awesome list. This should be sent out to Developers (from CEO to intern) in an email every Monday and Friday morning. For certain items 5 through 1 have been highly neglected and have been rplaced by the Godager Mantra: Combat Combat Combat. Well, Combat Combat Combat isn't working so well. Maybe focusing on Sim Sim Sim will give a wider audience a large variety of things they can grow attached to and that in turn will keep them logging in for a longer time frame.

Very ture most mmos that are out these days Revolve around Combat, and if its not close to twitch/easy killN than no one wants it a good example IMO is Lotro Great game I think, but most peoples compalints about not likeing it was how the combat was slugish. Lotros combat was actually refreshing to me, not so fast paced and enjoyable, again same with FFX11 too.

Originally posted by Xnxax

This article really drives the point home:

Sandboxes rule and themeparks drool.

I agree with this article.  Thanks Jon.  And as to the above quote.  The best situation would be a sandbox game with themepark elements that are optional.  I propose developers start making Sandpark games!  Or Themebox games!  Er, whatever ;)
 

Addressing the overall idea of "systems", don't you think that the one thing sadly lacking in the majority of games is a way to get, and stay, in touch with other like-minded players?

I began playing online MMOs in 2001 starting with Diablo 2. After a few group experiences there and in a few subsequent games, I became a "solo player".

Not because I wanted to stay away from other online people, I have in fact, a longer history of belonging to virtual worlds versus gaming.

But it was the type of people I was running into. And not being a youngster with loads of time on my hands to evaluate and sift through the hundreds of folks who were not a match for my personality, but wanting to play the games, I chose the path that fit my entertainment needs and my schedule that's pretty much run by my work.

I didn't have the time to search through tens of "guild" and fan sites to find people I liked playing with.

This last fall I started playing around with a Facebook account I had let lie dormant for two years, and decided to use games to learn Facebook.

Doing so resulted in a surprise for me. I LIKE grouping - as long as I can find people who take the time to construct and execute a plan. I've been playing a browser game - Castle Age - and I love how the players can use all of the tools on Facebook to plan and run a campaign.

This, to me, is what is missing from most games - a set of communication tools that let the player quickly find others they will enjoy playing the game with, and allows them a simple and easy to use method to stay in contact.

I don't know how they can duplicate a system like that, but on Facebook you have your game feeds, friend feeds, your wall, personal messaging, groups and group messaging, group and personal events, chat, and a note area.

Yes, there's a lot more at Facebook, but these tools are primarily what they gamers there use to communicate, plan, and execute game goals in an expedient fashion. Then we sit around and chat a bit when a mob goes down.

Why do I like it so much? If I get poorly matched person in my "army" and also on my Friend's List, I simply eject them from both.

Poorly matched for me, as a 50 year old married female is some silly person spreading porn around my Wall and sending nasty language through messaging and chat. Delete them and it goes away, forever. I may see their name in-game, may see something they post on Battle Chat, but for the most part they are blocked from my view.

ach! I don't know, maybe it can't be done, but I can dream about it, can't I? :)

Originally posted by Safra

Addressing the overall idea of "systems", don't you think that the one thing sadly lacking in the majority of games is a way to get, and stay, in touch with other like-minded players?

I began playing online MMOs in 2001 starting with Diablo 2. After a few group experiences there and in a few subsequent games, I became a "solo player".

Not because I wanted to stay away from other online people, I have in fact, a longer history of belonging to virtual worlds versus gaming.

But it was the type of people I was running into. And not being a youngster with loads of time on my hands to evaluate and sift through the hundreds of folks who were not a match for my personality, but wanting to play the games, I chose the path that fit my entertainment needs and my schedule that's pretty much run by my work.

I didn't have the time to search through tens of "guild" and fan sites to find people I liked playing with.

This last fall I started playing around with a Facebook account I had let lie dormant for two years, and decided to use games to learn Facebook.

 

Doing so resulted in a surprise for me. I LIKE grouping - as long as I can find people who take the time to construct and execute a plan. I've been playing a browser game - Castle Age - and I love how the players can use all of the tools on Facebook to plan and run a campaign.

This, to me, is what is missing from most games - a set of communication tools that let the player quickly find others they will enjoy playing the game with, and allows them a simple and easy to use method to stay in contact.

I don't know how they can duplicate a system like that, but on Facebook you have your game feeds, friend feeds, your wall, personal messaging, groups and group messaging, group and personal events, chat, and a note area.

Yes, there's a lot more at Facebook, but these tools are primarily what they gamers there use to communicate, plan, and execute game goals in an expedient fashion. Then we sit around and chat a bit when a mob goes down.

Why do I like it so much? If I get poorly matched person in my "army" and also on my Friend's List, I simply eject them from both.

Poorly matched for me, as a 50 year old married female is some silly person spreading porn around my Wall and sending nasty language through messaging and chat. Delete them and it goes away, forever. I may see their name in-game, may see something they post on Battle Chat, but for the most part they are blocked from my view.

ach! I don't know, maybe it can't be done, but I can dream about it, can't I? :)

/bump very well put

Reading through this thread has been a very interesting experiance.  The "Sandboxers" vs. the "Themeparkers" is kinda humorous.  I started my MMORPG experiance with my IP love of Star Wars.  Yes, SWG.  I fully understand the Skill based progression that was in game compared to the Level based grind in most today. Both have thier troubles but hands down choosing your own path is best and adds to your final stake in that MMORPG world.

What I find humorous in the Level based Themeparkers is thier lack of understanding of "Why Housing?"  They read very much like this:

"(Grunt) Don't need house.  Don't need nothing but to level so my progression is longer higher than the next guys.  I need this so I know when I win the game.  I also know what to expect from my enemies in PVP.  Girls play house, men kill and I am the man.(scratchs scrote). After that, I can leave this whore of a game to pillage the next to spread my power."

Let me leave that with this added, your time in a game is forgotten on those you conquer in battle when you quit.  Except the poor noob you left a Moisture Vaporator at his door step with your name and 4 years of maintance.  Thats the sweetest water ever harvested.

For crafting i would say Horizons is one of the best since just about everything in game is player made, leveling tradeskills there was a market for the simple swords or armor, in games like wow working tradeskills unless at 450 skill it's fairly useless just a long grind to get to 450.

The best tutorial/newbie area in any game that i have played must be age of conan, tortage is a lot of fun and while many quests are the same the night time missions are different.

I do hate that you can't craft in age of conan before lvl 40 :( but nice crafting games are vanguard, eq2 and horizons, can be as fun to work tradeskills as leveling and it is a nice change of pace.

I didn't red anything but the OP & I just want to say that MMO economy is a joke & that it should be removed all together. I have some idea about what could replace it, but I'm sure some ppl wont like it cuz they wont be able to abuse it like the current system.

I think its clear as day that RMT ( gold seller) will ruin any MMOG economy. Thats a fact, so why not get rid of it. Games would fair much better without it.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot most ppl don't want fair... they want to be the best. Nvm...

Originally posted by Lathander81

*stands up and does the slow 80's clap*  That was right on the money.  I think thats what games have been missing this whole time.  Yes the exp,loot and character developement are important but you need some thing to hold you there and make you see apart of the world.  Thats why FFXI was so great...good economy, housing, grouping was great.  The community was awesome.  I hope that devs really look at this!

I've often talked to friends about why I always come back to FFXI and wondered myself why it sticks with me like it does.  I've played Wow, EQ, LOTRO, Vanguard, Aion, etc, that I enjoyed initially but lost their appeal, whereas, I've always 'stuck' with FFXI.  I may play something else, but it is the one game that's kept me over the years.  

Reading this article made me realize why.  The friends I've made there are amazing.  I love doing things with them.  I feel a part of the world whether it's by helping friends with my crafting skills or helping to win over areas for my country or protect Al Zabhi from invading forces.  And with level sync, it's been easier than ever to party with friends or meet new people.  The game keeps growing, and I feel like Ive grown right along with it.  I haven't gotten that feeling of strong friendships or making a difference to the world from any other MMO.  I'm hoping for great things for FF14, but perfectly content in FFXI right now. 

Great article.