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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Some Concerns about The Old Republic
MMORPG.com's resident Star Wars aficionado Michael Bitton writes this article expressing some of the concerns that he, as a major Star Wars geek, has about the upcoming Bioware MMO.
Editorial By Michael Bitton on February 12, 2010
It’s been just over seven months since my somewhat controversial take on Star Wars: The Old Republic’s potential class roster, so I’d say I’m a bit overdue in taking another look at the game and where it stands today. Before I get into that, though, some context is necessary, mainly, I’m “That Guy,” the guy that Scott Jennings referred to in a recent column on Star Trek Online, only I’m “That Guy” for Star Wars. A self admitted Star Wars geek, nerd, or even fanboy if you want to get dirty.
advertisement I spent my teenage years reading Star Wars novels, designing and playing on Star Wars MUDs, and watching the films a ton. Having played text-based MUDs for years, which offered the benefit of visualizing things in my mind, like a book, I never really saw the draw in dropping 15 bucks a month to play in what I felt was a vastly inferior experience. At least back when EverQuest was king, MMOGs were essentially just graphical MUDs. It wasn’t until Star Wars Galaxies that I felt absolutely compelled to dive into the pool.
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Why was all of this context necessary? Because like many of you out there, I was quite burnt throughout the whole Star Wars Galaxies fiasco, and am clinging eagerly to the hope that BioWare will treat the IP right with the second take of a Star Wars MMOG. Of course, BioWare has the benefit of the doubt, given their storied history, and while the trickle of information has been slow, some things have been alarming to me as a Star Wars geek, as “that guy.” While many veterans of the MMOG genre are debating whether or not Star Wars: The Old Republic even qualifies as an MMOG, or whether it will resemble a traditional MMOG, more important to me than all of that is a simple question:
Will it resemble Star Wars?
For me, games like Star Wars: The Force Unleashed are absolute blasphemy. If you enjoyed that game, most of what I’ll be saying here might very well go over your head. The mantra throughout the game’s development was “kicking ass with The Force.” Each and every time I read this rattled off in an interview or heard it in a video, I could only react by shaking my head or facepalming. Watching the main character yank a Star Destroyer out of the sky using The Force really sealed the deal for me never wanting to touch the game.
So what’s getting under my skin about The Old Republic? Well, let’s start with my aforementioned controversial class roster article. While many users derided me for writing such a “ridiculous” article, I turned out to be right, which is actually bittersweet for me. For one, I was grilled for postulating that we might see a Jedi Consular serving as our backline healer, which has, well, turned out to be true. Some users were downright convinced I was crazy, since, well, we weren’t going to have healers, right? You might be looking for an “I told you so!” here, but even as I said then, I only observed this as a possibility due to the precedent found in the Knights of the Old Republic games, and I would actually be quite disappointed if it turned out to be true. Most of my more thoughtful or creative ideas (as well as your own) turned out to be false, while the more logical and less interesting ones turned out to be true.
We now have eight classes, four of which are force users, which I honestly feel was a bit of a waste. What could be done with four that could not be done with two? Do you really need four classes to tell their stories or accomplish their gameplay goals? Different storylines could fork off based on specialization choices. Sure, I’ve got some nitpicks, such as calling the warrior Jedi class the Jedi Knight (which is a rank) as opposed to the Jedi Guardian, which would be more appropriate. Another fear of mine since the announcement of these classes is the constant depiction of the Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular wielding double-bladed lightsabers. This makes absolutely no sense, as the double-bladed lightsaber is both incredibly hard to master, and also quite rare. The use of such a lightsaber was actually frowned upon by the Jedi Council, no less! Yet it appears to be, perhaps exclusively, available to the Sith Inquisitor and Consular.
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For those of you who were unfamiliar with my boring lesson in lightsaber history, you might be wondering then, why would BioWare make such a curious choice? Wouldn’t the double-bladed lightsaber be more fitting with the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior? It seems fairly obvious, right? My theory is actually quite simple. As I mentioned in my “Twelve Possible Classes” piece, there would likely be a Sith Lord-type class for MMOG players who aren’t necessarily interested in Star Wars, but want to get their ranged nuking on in BioWare’s new MMOG, and I feel the choice of lightsaber type goes hand in hand here. In order to accomplish the task of creating that “mage” feeling, the nuker/priest Force classes will have the option of wielding double-bladed lightsabers because they are the closest analogue to a traditional mage’s staff.
While I can’t say definitively whether or not this is true, or if double-bladed lightsabers would also be available to our force wielding warrior classes, the point isn’t really the specific example, but more that they are illustrative of an alarming trend for the more diehard Star Wars fans looking forward to this game. While I am a Star Wars geek, I do understand that gameplay trumps continuity and every single IP-based project makes these sorts of errors. It is simply puzzling when they are unnecessary. It would be tragic, for example, if the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior ended up only being formidable opponents while in a single or dual wielding configuration, yet their more contemplative counterparts could specialize in being absolute masters of one of the most difficult types of lightsabers to wield. And this seems to be a likely outcome. After all, if both can specialize in these lightsaber forms, what is the purpose of having the option on the Inquisitor or Consular? Why the overlap?
I feel your pain since I am also "that guy" when it comes to SW. To be honest, though I will of course play TOR, I'd really rather SW mmo's not get made at all, because developers have proven to be incapable of respecting an IP's established canon when making an mmo.
This doesn't just apply to SWG (although that game is bar none the finest example of canon-raping in the history of gaming), but to all licensed games. WAR, STO, LotRo and AoC are all complete hack jobs when it comes to accurately portraying the worlds they are based on. Bioware's pedigree and talent notwithstanding, it will be a miracle if TOR doesn't follow suit.
There is something about being a developer that makes you go "hmmm, yeah this was cool in the movies/books/comics, but it will never work in a game." I don't understand this mentality, as obviously the whole reason to make an IP-based game is to sell units to people who, you know, like that IP, but you apparently can't be a game developer without subscribing to it.
As an aside, it's good to know I'm not the only SW fan who abhorred TFU. Seeing as how it was designed by SWG/NGE alums Julio Torres and Haden Blackman, is it any wonder that it was full of revisionist SW history and over-the-top nonsense?
Good article.
/salute
You have some awesome points, but at the end of the day Bioware have shown what they can do with a Star Wars universe and make it their own. And Kotor really got me into those typical RPG'S and so i fell in love with mass effect ect ect.
So i trust their opinions and i hope it works for them. The whole class part of your article is spot on too many force classes and im still stuck on what to choose but maybe it was for the best spread the powers out so the characters are not over powerful and same goes for weapons maybe.
And armour Kotor Malek looked liked darth vader without his helmet but with red armour. And so did revan and these characters came before Darth Vader in the time line. So Vader is actually taking the style from them. And not just that Vader was mostly robotic and the characters/armour we have seen so far are not. So who knows. At the end of the day i trust bioware. They have shown us what they can do. And im up for it.
It looks like every decision Bioware has made regarding classes, art-style, and timeline is a push toward attracting the casual SW fan. The people who want to see what is familiar and 'iconic" to them about Star Wars. I'm afraid this game is not looking to appease the hardcore, and frankly, with the numbers of players a MMO must maintain, it is completely expected for them to go this route. Sorry for you but it does make sense money-wise.
I agree with some of your ideas and disagree with others.
At this point i want to to see the glass half full instead of half empty. Its fairly easy to complain about a lot of what is being done, but just as you said we don't have info to build ourself a good idea of how the game will turn to.
So far Bioware hasn't lets us down with any of their games so i have faith in them.
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For example, if we’ve got a group of players with overlapping classes and some players at different parts of their storyline than others, how do we proceed with regards to spoilers? And whose quest lines do we even choose to go on to begin with? Everyone in the group is likely going to want to proceed with their own storyline, and all the jumping back and forth between group members’ differing plot points is sure to be confusing. I think that even if they figure this out, many of us will simply opt out of grouping for wanting to experience the storylines on our own with our other characters.
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Have you ever played Lord of the Rings online?
Lotro has a very good system in which they combine story a traditional questing progression. I think that lotro pretty much answers your fear about how will players will be able to combine their story experience even if they are at different stages.
If you guys think about story in this game there is nothing to be alarmed. If the game is an MMO and considering Biowares RPG history we will see a questing progression game where the story quests will be a very important part in that progression.
I prefer logic over brutal assumptions. As such I am not that guy. I am however, a huge Star Wars fan... my attempt to prove this would only anger people, so I digress.
I agree with the road they took of the four force users. This is something I predicted very early and I am very happy with. Also reading through the info revolving around this story (including the recent references made by Obi-wan in the Clone Wars series) I am actually quite pleased with how they are, in general, handling this game.
I disagree that JC will get boxed into healing, and I am even more sure with this after recent play changes I have seen. Further more the JK and JC classes are so drastically different I don't think there would have been a reasonable way to combine their stories and then branched them off as specializations, I also believe that their current structure will allows them to add in more force wielding classes in the future, including non-jedi. Such as the Jal Shey and Krath cult members. I also think they are planning long term, not short term. BioWare tends to think ahead with their games, and I think they realize how they must release content over the years to keep up with the players.
This isn't to say I don't have concerns, I do. But my concerns are quite a bit more in-depth then your worries about the style of building looking to much like the movies. And I believe in that regard, your worry is misplaced.
Its true tho, for some reason the only way to have a MMO is to have a Tank, some DPS and a healer. I stopped caring about STO when they started talking about people rolls. its the same with ToR.
I had the best Star Wars experience in SWG, before Jedi was even in the game. I was able to make a toon and live in the Star Wars universe. if I picked up a gun, I became better at guns. if I punched something, I became better at that. Heck I didn't even need to fight to progress i the game.
Classes worked in WoW and they should stay there.
Exactly...
In fact most hardcore SW geeks will still play SWTOR...Sure they may whine and moan a bit, but in the end it's a SW Game and they'll play...
I noticed an informal Poll on the STO Forums that simply asked "Would you play this Game if it was not a Star Trek Game?" The response was overwhelmingly...No...Last I counted it was about 70%, maybe more No's...That kinda says it all to me...The Folks like the author of this Article who would actually be bothered enough to stay away in time are SO few and far between they are certainly NOT the target demo...Not even close...
BioWare will not suffer opinions like the one's in that article whatsoever...And who knows, TOR may very well be FAR more iconic than even the nerdiest of nerds can imagine...We'll all see next year I guess...
I agree with several points made in the article, such as the difficulties of combining story with group play, the effect that spoilers could have on the experience and that it needs to be star warsy.
Don't agree with other points made though, I'm not that guy however.
* 4 force users: I was also not very fond of this idea at first, but it kind of makes sense: they know people are going to roll Jedi/Sith en masse, so it's kind of smart to spread them out into a couple of classes instead of 1 on each side.
I also believe the story will be distinctly different between them, as for example, the Inquisitor starts out as a lowly slave who has to work up his way in Sith society and the Warrior starts as an arrogant bigshot "true Sith".
*Consular / Inquisitor = Healer / Nuker From the various hands-on experiences (on this site as well), we know that it will be more effective to play an Inquisitor combining both melee and ranged attacks, than just picking one.
It's been said by BW that they don't intend to really go with the classic trinity either, although there will be similarities.
Lastly, classes will be able to specialise: the Inquisitor can specialise into a more melee oriented character for example (based off Darth Maul).
*Double Bladed sabers Inquisitors / Consulars can use single blades, Warriors / Knights can also use double bladed sabers (artwork for double bladed sabers on the Knight / Warrior page).
Keep in mind the Jedi in this era are constantly facing Sith, so other types of lightsabers would be more common.
*Technology: Honestly, I'm really not bugged by the similarities, it's clear why they did it: they want some ties with the movies for those people who didn't have a go at the Kotor series.
The art still seems to have enough of a Kotor feel to it though.
If you're really "that guy", you'd also notice some of the EU references the movie era basing a lot of designs off of the era the game takes place in (it's the other way around in reality ofc).
Exactly...
In fact most hardcore SW geeks will still play SWTOR...Sure they may whine and moan a bit, but in the end it's a SW Game and they'll play...
I noticed an informal Poll on the STO Forums that simply asked "Would you play this Game if it was not a Star Trek Game?" The response was overwhelmingly...No...Last I counted it was about 70%, maybe more No's...That kinda says it all to me...The Folks like the author of this Article who would actually be bothered enough to stay away in time are SO few and far between they are certainly NOT the target demo...Not even close...
BioWare will not suffer opinions like the one's in that article whatsoever...And who knows, TOR may very well be FAR more iconic than even the nerdiest of nerds can imagine...We'll all see next year I guess...
I have played a lot of MMOs, I wouldn't consider myself in the op of the Hardcore (although does 60+ MMO game play hours per week count for anything?). But I have played in pre-CU SWG and in NGE. The main thing that I look for in any game is storyline. A good story is the most important part. MMOs have a tendency of writing half baked stories. SWG really didn't have any, it played well for "A Day in the Life of Star Wars" as an online sim in pre-CU, but really had no kick. You sort of had to make up what you wanted to do, which lends well to the absolute sandbox. And while I don't want to be lead around by my hand, I do want a compelling story, with compelling choices, and great RP. These personal decision and choices are something that PnP has done well, but not MMOs.
Now in regards to STO, I was a little disappointed at first with story (I am now Cp8), I have to say that it has gotten really interesting. The developments are well done, but it still lacks a bit of choice. This is something new that TOR aims for, a new way to play. Not simply combat, not simply saying Tank, DPS, Healer... no. It wants players involvement, player decisions, player driven (but story guided) gameplay. This is something that other MMOs have attempted in small scale, but TOR will be the first to take it on in large scale. It's not a harcore vs casual thing, its supposed to be a new way of looking at the game entirely. And as such we should view it from a different perspective then the games that have come before, and not judge it by the same standards. We should engage it by an attempt to make the game more immersive, something new; and if it works, something wonderful.
I think what most of the SW Fanboys lose perspective about is that most of the decisions can easily be explained or manipulate the lore to validate the decisions. Since the level of recognition of using a double-balded lightsaber for all force classes, or a nearly identical speeder, or even the almost exact match to Boba Fett BH armor is more important in that the masses will be able to associate w/ the game. On a larger scale which supersedes all the fanboys that can nitpick and whine about minute and unimportant details. Like who the Smuggler shown is in identical garments to that of Han Solo.
The fanboy sees it and says “hey!! This happened thousands of years BBY??!?! Shenanigans!”
While someone that just likes it thinks “Hey cool. He’s like Han Solo. I wanna be like Han Solo”
Perspective is key.
Is it important that a story, vastly unfamiliar w/ most casual Star Wars fans be so unique and diverse in the SW universe, that every die hard Wookiepidia contributor can acknowledge that it’s perfect? Or, is it more important, that the 9-5, “I love Star Wars. I always watch it on Spike” dad of 3 who really only knows the movies, recognizes the general look, and has to mostly just learn where the story comes from, instead of practically a whole new IP?
While your concerns seem overly silly and on the verge of neurotic to me, there yours to have. But, I think when you have more perspective about the goals of EA & Bioware on the whole, it makes a metric shit ton more sense and I, as another “that guy” am completely forgiving of small, insignificant creative freedoms.
I'd like for someone to expand on that, as it's the exact type of attitude that most developers share, hence games that butcher canon.
Why must sacrifices be made, and which sacrifices?
I understand the need to cater to the widest possible audience (casuals), but if you define a casual fan as someone who is only peripherally interested in Star Wars, it stands to reason that they will happily accept whatever is given to them provided it has a lightsaber attached.
If that is the case, why can't the game (and I'm talking lore as well as mechanics) adhere to what has been previously established throughout the IP? I'm not saying that Bioware isn't doing so, maybe they are, but past games have not and the reason given has always been 'fun gameplay is more important than canon.'
Why can't the two co-exist? What is so 'unfun' about SW canon? If it were really so 'unfun,' it probably wouldn't be a huge franchise with lots of fans, no?
Is it that mmo's are very narrowly defined by a certain set of mechanics, and bending them even slightly for canonical reasons renders the resulting game less profitable? If so, then the resulting game won't be doing anything innovative but by definition will be doing more of the same.
Again, not accusing TOR/Bioware of doing this because we don't really know yet, but I am interested in using this as an opportunity for someone to explain to me why canon and fun game play are constantly treated as mutually exclusive.
I am also that guy. I don't go to conventions, I don't dress up as a Jedi, or, Stormtrooper and my knowledge of the EU books is limited to a few authors that I really like. Drew Karpyshyn (also a lead writer for BioWare) and Timothy Zahn being my favourites.
However, I am a HUGE Star Wars fan. I was born in 1973, so a large part of my childhood was spent playing with my Star Wars toys, or, having saber battles with my friends using wooden poles covered in red/blue/green insulating tape. Many childhood bruises were suffered at the end of those deadly weapons :p
I loved SWG in it's original Pre-CU form, although I was also very aware of it's failings. It is still my favourite MMO to date.
When BioWare finally revealed their big secret (*cough, cough*) I was delighted. I loved KOTOR and I also really enjoy the Darth Bane trilogy of EU books written by Drew Karpyshyn of BioWare. However, I knew that the game would be nothing like Pre-CU SWG, and I was perfectly fine with that fact.
I'm different from Michael (article writer) though in that I knew that there would be more than one Force Wielding class per faction. In fact I'm amazed that anyone who played KOTOR could think otherwise. Guardian, Sentnel and Consular were the three variations in KOTOR and they have been distilled down to Knight and Consular for SW:TOR.
You have your all powerful force wielder who isn't as handy with a blade and you have your roflstomp saber user that is a little low on force powers. It was absolutely to be expected.
As for the technology issue, the Star Wars galaxy seems to have reached a technological plateau a good few thousand years before even the original KOTOR, with very little advancement being made even up until the time of the original trilogy. I suppose once you can travel faster than light and can use energy weapons there isn't many places to go from there. Time travel perhaps, or melding organic matter with technology like those terrible 'Vong' EU characters.
To sum up, I have every faith in BioWare to create a great game that I will have many hours of fun playing, as I am a completionist. I will have to play every class through several times to see everything that the game has to offer storywise, then I'll pick a main and worry about 'endgame'.
Like I said, I have every faith in BioWare creating a great game, if it will also be a great MMO remains to be seen.
OH look that stormtroopers boots are laced from the right and not the left!!! Foul!! That's not canon!!.... really silly article here. Nothing said even would appear on my radar.. and I am a huge Star Wars Fan.. the original trilogy is still my second favorite movie series of all time. All this wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth is ridiculous and quite frankly stupid. Here is a RADICAL proposal: One year from now, when Closed Beta and Open Beta occurs, THEN we can argue, dissect and ponder the game on its own merits.. until then.. lets actually do something productive like find new ideas that get MMOs awe from the so called "Trinity" of classes.. maybe even discussing how best to get away from the mind numbing numbers of High Fantasy Games.. lets see more diversity of game worlds for instance.. TOR will be fine.. actually probably more than fine.. I trust Bioware 1000%.. Dragon Age was ruining my life until STO launched... so lets close up this worrying thread and move on...
Only thing i can say is, i totally agree with your points ...
And would like to add one thing: Star wars is not a universe with classes.
An open development only could be realistic. Check some games as Eve, Darkfall (hope i'm not totally false with this game) ... with no character classes and totally open character development.
SWToR will be an arcade game, with gameplay totally copied on the classics mmo genre (not to say wow ... oups i said it).
Even the idea of 2 factions is totally stupid, in SW you have jedis, siths, and all the other that dont belong to one of these two factions, but one of the hundred available in the universe.
True
Though given the type of game they are making, open ended game-play and sanboxish skill systems might be a little much in terms of development costs and time. It would be great to get a "great story" along with something more open, it just doesn't seem like a feasible thing to accomplish, given the limitations put on any development studio in regard to budget and release windows.
All of that funding went into making a cinematic experience. How that will turn out is anyone's guess.
As for two factions in a way it makes sense, yes the Jedi order is a different entity than the republic. However they serve the republic, which makes sense to have them sided with them. The same goes for the Sith, though in their minds the "empire" serves them.
As far as a gray area is concerned, BH's siding with one side,doesn't really make sense, outside of the "empire" used them in the movies. Smugglers the same could be said (Han in the movies, Talon Karde (SP?) and others in the EU). Looks to me as though they were forced with a decision to align them or not, they chose to, given there were examples of them siding in the lore it's forgivable IMO.
but... this article wasn't about that. This article was about some of the nitpicky points that Star Wars fans may have noticed. Just because the topic isn't to your personal tastes, doesn't mean that it isn't a completely valid topic.
We've had articles about the particular topics you mentioned in the past, this one was about something different so let's have some respect for that, even if it's not your cup of tea?
When I read articles such as this one and I see the "I too was upset with the whole SW:G thing..." in it, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever it is they are complaining about.
As a beta tester for SW:G, the game was NEVER good, and shouldn't have been released when it was. Yet so many people still dreamily refer to the post launch era as the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe if you enjoy macros and incomplete professions (classes cough) and mostly empty worlds, it was...
As far as SW:TOR goes, I'm in a wait and see mode. It looks a bit arcady, but then the 3 pre-quels are that way. But first, and foremost, it has to be FUN. If it isn't fun, gnashing teeth about the canon and lore being wrong is pointless.
I think the only 2 issues I had with th egame was the choice of "stylized-realism" look of the characters and I'm still wondering how grouping will be in this game. Like, how many can be in a group, how does it affect your storyline when grouping and how easy will it be to find groups. I'm still excited about playing the game but it is only natural for players to have concerns about their game they are wanting to play.
This is set in BioWare's Star Wars time period. They have created most if not all the lore for it, and I trust them completely. Their games have always been amazing, from KOTOR and Jade Empire up until Mass Effect 2. I'm really looking forward to this game, and I'm sure it will feel just like Star Wars does.
When I read posts that make sweeping generalizations about how SWG was never good, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever other points they were trying to make.
The game was never good, to you, and that's cool. A lot of people disagree, as you even note in your post (though you whiffed completely on why, no it wasn't because they enjoyed macros or incomplete professions).
The most important thing to take away from your response is the last part: it does have to be fun, but how do you define fun? For many people it isn't fun if the lore/canon aren't respected. Fun to you is probably a diarrhea sandwich to me, judging by your opinion of SWG.
The point is, there's no reason to ever disregard canon and lore, or label it pointless. If canon/lore wasn't fun to begin with, the license wouldn't have such a huge following and you could call it 'generic space opera #342251.' Star Wars isn't Star Wars without canon and lore.
Bioware has almost complete creative control of this time period since it is based off their KOTOR game. As a result, some elements may seem familiar to Star Wars fans and some may not. However, I fully trust that Bioware is putting their usual level of polish on this game and I have no doubt that it will be extremely entertaining. They have never given me any reason to doubt them...
If there was one game I would be pre-order five years in advance it would this game, and I might even give them twice the amount as a deposit to make sure I get that Collector's Edition. I wonder if EB Games is taking pre-orders yet...
I think the mian problem 'that guy' faces is that in reality the game he would design wouldn't be fun because of the constraints of lore consistency they would insist were enforced. TORs issue will be the same as any other SWs license with multiplayer - what is fun about Star Wars for the vast majority of the mass market is wielding a lightsaber and throwing force powers around. They (and I should say 'we' because I fit in that mold) only really care about getting to re-enact our childhood joy of lightsaber duels and the like. I really don't care if it isn't 'canon' that there would be force healers, less lightsabers or whatever else the lore addicts want to insist upon.
I want a fun game where I get to be the Jedi Knight I always dreamed of being as a kid. I couldn't care less about the canon as long as the game is fun and works well as a game. It is supposed to be fun after all ;)
When I read posts that make sweeping generalizations about how SWG was never good, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever other points they were trying to make.
The game was never good, to you, and that's cool. A lot of people disagree, as you even note in your post (though you whiffed completely on why, no it wasn't because they enjoyed macros or incomplete professions).
The most important thing to take away from your response is the last part: it does have to be fun, but how do you define fun? For many people it isn't fun if the lore/canon aren't respected. Fun to you is probably a diarrhea sandwich to me, judging by your opinion of SWG.
The point is, there's no reason to ever disregard canon and lore, or label it pointless. If canon/lore wasn't fun to begin with, the license wouldn't have such a huge following and you could call it 'generic space opera #342251.' Star Wars isn't Star Wars without canon and lore.
I was going to quote your post as well as a couple other SW:G pre-NGE fanboy posts here to prove my point.
But I was lazy.
Nit-picking about lore when the game isn't out yet and we don't know all the details yet is not my thing as it is pointless. It could change. It might not. It might not matter (either it proves "canon" in its own right, or the game stinks, fails, and is forgotten).
If the game comes out and is fun to play for the masses, then quibbling over lore becomes marginally more meaningful.
Now if the game was expressly being designed with the hard core lore fanatic in mind, then I COULD see where it means something, since it might be construed as false advertising. But this game is like the others Bioware has made: for as large an audience as they can get. To paraphrase an above poster's comment: "Who cares which side the stormtrooper's boots lace up?"
well there is a easy way to see how story driven effects groups
Play LoTRO, the main line Book is story driven and you can jump in and out of other peoples "chapters"
Very well written, and much appreciated. I totally agree with your article in every single item you mentioned, and (while unlikely) I wish Bioware would take a read on it, and seriously contemplate every sentence you wrote, outlining so many potential issues.
My biggest qualm so far has been the classes as well - (4) force user classes is a big big BIG mistake, and I don't think they fully grasp the pit they've dug themselves into. In all reality, given a 2011 release date (which will most likely be pushed back people lol), they still have time to think it out and fix it!
I am eagerly awaiting the story features, as well as the voice-over dialogue too - but your concerns are also valid and well postulated for these.
Keep these critiques and concerns coming... I say you turn this into a letter from the fanbase to Bioware, and get signatures!
I was going to quote your post as well as a couple other SW:G pre-NGE fanboy posts here to prove my point.
But I was lazy.
Nit-picking about lore when the game isn't out yet and we don't know all the details yet is not my thing as it is pointless. It could change. It might not. It might not matter (either it proves "canon" in its own right, or the game stinks, fails, and is forgotten).
If the game comes out and is fun to play for the masses, then quibbling over lore becomes marginally more meaningful.
Now if the game was expressly being designed with the hard core lore fanatic in mind, then I COULD see where it means something, since it might be construed as false advertising. But this game is like the others Bioware has made: for as large an audience as they can get. To paraphrase an above poster's comment: "Who cares which side the stormtrooper's boots lace up?"
You and the stormtrooper boot hyperbole guy miss the point entirely. If the game is designed for the casual masses (which I'm fine with btw), they won't care if the lore is accurate or not. So why not make it accurate to appease everyone? It's not any harder to do.
Again, maybe Bioware will do so, but no other company ever has (speaking of licensed mmo's only of course) and therefore it's a legitimate thing to discuss.
I am that guy as well, but I have steeled myself long ago to the canon-raping of games, comics, and even the recent Clone Wars CG.
I used to be able to get behind anything that was star wars-related and know that it would be amazing. I would defend it all, and love it. Now, after so much abuse at the hands of Lucas and more recent games and movies, I find it quite the opposite. I actually shy away from all things Star Wars, in the hopes of preserving my fragments of childhood happiness.
The exception to this, is the KOTOR games. These were games that seemed immune to the dumbing down of the IP that is pervasive now. I will play TOR simply out of respect for what Bioware has done with KOTOR, and their other games for that matter.
Bear in mind, however, that when they made the KOTOR games, they were borrowing heavily from the WOTC tabletop RPG in terms of game mechanics and classes. It could be that they lost their ability to do that for the MMO, so expect some mechanical differences.
I just really hope they don't shoot for the lowest common denominator on this one.
Prax
Consulars are not healers, they are Force-attackers just as much, and it seems designed to be a bit more of an "RP" class compared to the J. Knight and S. Warrior. And who knows that the difference is going to be between single, dual, and double-bladed lightsabers? They haven't released any information on the learning curves for these, but knowing Bioware (and how they like character progression), you can bet it's tiered on at least some level, and you won't be able to go into the hometown shop and buy a slick two-sided lightsaber.
well as a star wars enthusiast myself, as well as a pre-cu swg vet, i have asked myself many of the questions you have. some without answer some i can take a guess.
two jedi classes per faction: initially i thought as you did - why? but then it struck me that bioware (perhaps wisely) has concluded that jedi will be a very popular class (by jedi i mean sith too). having two classes of each offers a sense of class variety in the game which would otherwise be lacking.
i too became a bit dissapointed with the many similarities between the swtor era and the OT. i still don't quite understand why they do this for as you pointed out - they already had kotor to fall back on. but the similarities range from the speeder you mention, to the clone armor, star ships, etc.
i can relate to your assessment on "the force unleash" - even though i havent played it many of the new EU books are trailing on the same path of jedi = god. but then again let us not forget the kyp durron - suncrusher episode which i believe is what led to all this.
as for the third faction - they probably looked at swg and realised it just didn't take off - great concept and very much starwars but possibly kind of difficult to create content for neutrally alligned players.
as a final point the biggest mystery to me has been the use and abuse by bioware of the infamous "iconic and starwarsy". i find it incredibly hard to believe they are completely unaware of how a negative connotation has been made of this phrase.
All I can hope for is its not even remotely similar to the NGE.
I would still love a pre cu server.
It would have been a fantastic idea for them to implement yet 2 more blaster classes while sitting back watching 50% of the community rolling the 2 force sensitive classes. Anybody that thinks that wouldn't have happened is out of their tree. The only way for them to somewhat balance the class population was to make the last 2 classes force sensitive. What dev wants to see the majority of their players using a quarter of the classes?
This is going to be a fully voiced WoW in space with lightsabers and a complex storyline. Might as well drop all hopes of it being anything like SWG as they want the game to be a success.
As long as BioWare doesn't take the Blizzard route lore-wise (yes, I know: "WoW lore is still being developed! It's a persistent world, so Blizzard can do whatever they want!"), I'll be happy. First we had helicopters, next we had motorcycles, and soon, we'll have space-based weapons of mass destruction... built of Gnome cogs and Goblin rockets.
Most people don't care about WoW lore, and of those that do, most don't feel that Warcraft has been trivialized and dumbified (yes, my own vernacular). I, however, do.
That's one of several reasons I can't play wow. There is a level of whimsy that just doesn't sit well with me.
I'm not a Star Wars geek, but I am a fan. Because I'm a fan I didn't watch episodes 2 or 3, but I did read Zahn's books, and played KOTOR with enthusiasm and KOTOR2 with milder engagement, and avoided the various shooter/campaign games like the plague. To me, it's all about story, and working in community for something greater as part of that story.
I was Luke's age when the first movie came out. What a lot of younger Star Wars fans may not realize is that the Reagan years had produced an ebb tide for altruism in the US. Volunteering was at an all-time low. Yuppies were in ascendence. "Lifestyle" had just been coined. If you were interested in volunteering, in discussing social good, you were some kind of damned and/or damaged hippie and should go back to the 60's where you belonged.
Into this, Lucas dropped a classical Hero's Journey story about idealism, freedom, good and evil. It shouldn't have made a cent in that environment -- but the power of good art is transformative. Star Wars isn't just a tale of heroism, it's a romantic tale in the old sense -- idealistic, over the top, sometimes cheesy, rich, and a little emo at times.
SWG, in the early days, worked well because it incorporated those ideals of freedom and cooperation, mixed with adventure and exploration, and it trusted the players to create their own plots and patterns within what was much more of a sandbox, and a classless MMO, than you saw then or since for the most part. This was a lure for the Star Wars fan, tuned to their character -- and it sucked a lot of us in. The early game was produced with a lot of love of the lore and the community.
SWG wasn't exactly a role-playing heavy game -- but people just naturally role played. Everyone knew what a bothan scout might be up to. What to expect from your average bounty hunter. Like Lord of the Rings Online, a rich lore made for a greater sense of immersion in this amazing world that almost existed. As a result, I think relationships and cooperation in the game came more naturally, and there was a lot more fun involved than just taking missions and harvesting resources. You felt like you were part of something organic, naturally emerging from the lore.
[rant about NGE elided]
But SW:TOR isn't really our game. I feel that SW:TOR is aimed at a younger Star Wars fan -- like my 17 year old son, who thinks of Star Wars as just another adventure story, and played with wrapping paper tubes as light sabers (and played KOTOR) as a kid. As a gamer, he's more into tactics and strategy and achievement than community and cooperation, and although he loves a game with good story, he doesn't want it to get "in the way" of the game.
Realistically, my son is Bioware's market for this game.
My question is, can the hopeless romantics that made up some of the core SWG community make our own place in this game too?
I'm willing to try.
yrs,
Shava
Let me address the "Darth Vader" armor thing. Darth Maul, according to Bioware, was not a warrior, he was a lightsaber focused inquisitor, which is why he danced around so much. Vader was not dancy, he was more of an armored warrior. Maul wore cloth robes and relied on agility and speed. Wizard or Agile warrior, Inquisitor.
Vader's armor from star wars wiki:
His suit followed an ancient Sith tradition, in which the warriors of the dark side of the Force would adorn themselves in heavy armor.
I don't think it's crazy to believe that this is the time period spoken about. Perhaps that's why most of the warriors are wearing this armor?
I don't want to go through and pick apart your article because I understand your frustrations, but this is one of those times where "wait and see" may be the best idea. When we have full facts, we can arm ourselves with strongly worded requests.
Frankly I couldn't care less about "canon" because it doesn't really exist for SW and I'm not just talking about games. Anyone remember when Luke is talking to Leia on Endor and asks about her mother? She says she died when she was young but she was beutiful but always seemed sad? Leia must have the best memory ever to remember her mother who died right after birthing her. So if George can mess with canon to produce god awful movies I don't mind Bioware doing so to make a good game. But than I stopped being "that guy" when I was in high school.
Sure they can, I plan on being a part of said community, along with my wife and our guild which has existed since the early Starsider days. That said, it would be nice if one day a group of developers would wake up and realize that markets do exist outside of the teen/casual/achievement crowd. There are probably many people who would pay a premium subscription fee for something like the original SWG, AC, or UO.
I WANT TO PLAY A JEDI WHO DOESN'T WEAR ARMOR!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just want to wear normal Jedi Robes, Bioware!!!!!!!!
Christ, why is that so much to ask for! Armored Shoulder pads AREN'T COOL!!
From the concept art on the website and in stills from "Designing the Dark Side" you can see a lighter-armored Sith Warrior. You'll wear slightly less armor and do more damage, but you'll still be able to take more of a beating than an Inquisitor. I'm going to use WoW as an example because people would scratch their heads if I used an example from Earth and Beyond so please forgive me in advance oh angry sandbox kings. I'd imagine it'd be as if the damage spec'd Sith Warrior would be like a fury or arms warrior and the melee spec for the Inquisitor would be more like a rogue. The devs are saying they used Darth Maul as an inspiration for one of the Inquisitor's paths(talent tree/skill tree/spec/whatever) . They have a melee tree where you generally use a staffsaber and jump around like a bunny swinging the staff around, but if you get focused you're going to go down faster than a drunk prom date.
For me, it's simple - has BioWare ever released a game that flop? No. I mean just look at their past two releases Dragon Age of Origins and Mass Effect 2 - HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE hits!
Saying BioWare will flop with Star Wars is like saying Michael Jordan will miss a game-winning free throw. Not gonna happen.
There's a first time for everything. Besides they're venturing outside of their normal practice on this title, nothing is certain at this point especially where success is concerned.
This thread isn't about TOR flopping. It's about Star Wars nerds like myself bitching about the fact that the game is trying to appeal to an audience that isn't necessarily us.
Prax
I read the article : good one. Grtz.
Some thoughts: MMORPG's are not story tellers. So Bioware is on a difficult mission here. A challeging one.
You know the stories that come out of good games? It's the story that comes out of the mouth of players (even outside of the game). The stories don't come from NPC's. The players make up their own stories from the encounters.
The more individual story, the less the multi player experience, the less the long term playing value ... because creating story telling content is far too costly to keep up with the ever advancing players.
A good MMORPG needs to have repeatable content that for some reason can be played over and over again.
A PvP situation for instance can be replayed 300 times if it is well designed.
How could you ever create a story telling mission about 300 fights?
The second thought I have about this game is the "henchmen" technique (taken from GW's).
The more NPC henchmen (as tank or healer) the less players will be grouping.
I think these are the 2 basic flows in the design that hamper this game as a long term succesful MMO.
Look at the playing hours of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect.
These games drop out after 2 months worth of content. ... and mmo players these days play way too fast and long to be entertained by spoken text. AOC showed everyone skipped the too long monologues of the puppets.
It is time for something new, but I don't think the individuel story telling is the way to go.
I think the next big hit in MMO's is the CoD MMORPG: fast furious simple action coupled with a world to upgrade in.
No one wants to hear a story twice.
The only thing that could potentially damage SWTOR would be if the devs actually paid attention to the few remaining anti-trinity idiots on their forums spewing about how they hate the mmo genre and actually want Jedi Knight 3: Online Adventures.
Rather than make a good game for the core SW fans that was high enough quality it would attract other players, it looks like they are trying to make a game that is as easy and appealing to as many people as humanly possible, and in doing so they alienate the core audience that follows the Star Wars universe. It's been seen time and time again in this Genre and elsewhere in main stream media. The thought process is that the core fans will buy it no matter how bad, so why not slap the name on the product, then make it appeal to everyone in the universe. That is the road I sense, that is the road of things like Transformers 2, Warhammer, MMA are all headed down. Its about marketing to everyone, even at the expense of the product turning it into watered down garbage rather than focusing on making a fantastic product that attracts people with quality instead of marketing quantity.
You have points I'll give you that but it's still star wars and that isn't gonna change.
Bioware is Working to get this going so let it go, if you have a problem then keep it to yourself and stop trying to de-rail the game cause it's not what you want to see.
There are those of us who don't give a **** about if it Follows the six movie storyline and just want something that lets us into Star Wars again, cause SWG is gone and thats so not coming back.
There's six movies? Are you sure? Somebody was trying to tell me they made a sequel to The Matrix the other day, but I didn't believe him.
Nice article :) I especially liked the observation about the doublebladed lightsaber. I also think they would fit better with the sith warrior or jedi knight.
I think its obvious that with the 4 force classes, Bioware doesnt only want to capture the Jedi loving SW fans, but also the traditional MMO players who always look for a warrior or mage type class in a new game.
The other classes are also based heavily on the main characters in the original trilogy or the current combat professions in SWG (commando, spy, bounty hunter, smuggler).
So even though the story takes place in The Old Republic, Bioware chose very recognisable classes from the movies and SWG for players to identify with.
My hopes for SW:TOR are also more about the immersion it brings with its stories.
That was a compelling read!
And I remember very well your former article ;)
I second that, even having always the saber held like a ninjato is boring.
Not exactly. From my reading of TOR classes there won't be pure healers classes in terms of mandatory ones as most classes have a heling tree. On top of that all classes seems to be able to use stims, so self heal themselves to some extend. While the 7-9-10-11 are mostly accurate the pilot was a big miss, as was the droid engineer.
You are far from the only one, and forking the stories could have been possible. for more input I invite you to check this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=115720
Having the option to look like him is nice but too much emphasis on this worries me.
Agree, but I guess we are biased.
100% agree, I thought nobody noticed that. I frowned when I saw that.
At last someone from the games industry pointing at the obvious truth.
That wasn't the only issue, still good point.
That goes along the Heroic feeling parody, but I can understand some players need that or that's the output of marketing studies. I don't blame the designers. And see below:
So am I, we are getting old. At least our wallet can talk...
Storywise, I appreciate BioWare mentioning you can walk the line as a jedi and take the grey path.
So true, it somehow laked in SWG and was the success factor in Dark Age of Camelot's RvR, we all (but the suits) know that.
Yes and no. I'm looking towards that for my lonely game play sessions. However I do know my wife and many others friends will just /pass over it even if it's voiced over. They just want to be point at where, what, how many, and that's it.
I have a very issue with that plus the big question: what will happen if a group choose a path you don't want to take? Will you have to redo the whole quest, regrind another character up to this embranchment to see the other outcome?
As a MMO player there are also a few points I foresee that annoys me:
- Tiered equipment,
- Predefined classes look with specific gear and color choices.
- Childistic storyline "insert heroic pattern here"
- Lack of pure crafters or pure entertainer professions (Yes I know, ain't SWG 2.0)
And on top of that while the surrondings looks nice I walk away from the heroic proportions used for the characters models.
I'd say we are mostly all on a wait and see status, but I can already feel the rage of the fans over TOR forums in a not so far away future. One thing is certain, they don't have an easy task and whatever they'll do there will always be hundred of thousand players unhappy!
I will say nothing of the article but this: If ever Bio manages to stay true on the launch period of '11 Spring, how will they ever manage to bring about this huge monster of universe within just 12 months?!
The same way Turbine included all of Middle-earth in The Lord of the Rings Online. Or Blizzard included all of Azeroth, Outland, the Emerald Dream, and the Twisting Nether at launch.
Hint: They won't. They'll focus on specific planets, because that's the only possible way. They already have 10 planets down and there's probably a few more that haven't been revealed yet. Isn't that enough?
The known galaxy is more than 100,000 light-years in diameter and consists of billions of star systems. Among these star systems, current estimates suggest there are more than one million inhabited worlds—many of them still unknown. At the current time, several planetary systems have been singled out for further study. It is on these worlds that analysts believe the future of the galaxy will be decided.
Isn't that enough?
The same way Turbine included all of Middle-earth in The Lord of the Rings Online. Or Blizzard included all of Azeroth, Outland, the Emerald Dream, and the Twisting Nether at launch.
Hint: They won't. They'll focus on specific planets, because that's the only possible way. They already have 10 planets down and there's probably a few more that haven't been revealed yet. Isn't that enough?
The known galaxy is more than 100,000 light-years in diameter and consists of billions of star systems. Among these star systems, current estimates suggest there are more than one million inhabited worlds—many of them still unknown. At the current time, several planetary systems have been singled out for further study. It is on these worlds that analysts believe the future of the galaxy will be decided.
Isn't that enough?
Sure is friend.. Still remains to see how they will piece all this together.
This writer needs to be replaced. I clicked on the link to this article expecting it something semi intelligent. This is just a ridiculous and invalid rant. This guy needs to find a new line of work.
Well your post has as much strength as when I state your forum icon smells like a fetid rotten rat carcass.
I afraid Bioware will follow typical recipte "to make a MMORPG":
0. Always remember - we making MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online. Massive means - everyone should by it, ppl will not buy complicated game, make it easy. To advertise for hardcore games - shout about PvP, they like it.
1. Make 2 sides, dark & light. Almost same classes, just minor differences. Making different sides make it complicated for content balance. So avoid it at all cost. Two is enough for PvP. Do not need more - just waste of time.
2. Announce "cool PvP". If classes are unbalanced in 1 vs 1 call it "group oriented pvp". If you manage to dumb classes so much that "1 vs 1" is balanced - don't forget to scream about it on every corner.
3. Make a few classes with typical roles (healer, tank, like 2+ diffrent DPS). Do not make pure support classes, do not make too complex classes, make it easy, so a noob can play any class and will never be confused. Classes should not be played differently in solo and group. Never expect that players can think logically, just make it easy. If there are not enough "pure classes" just make hybrids between any two.
4. In combat players should be busy mushing buttons. So force them to hit attack buttons non stop. Don't forget to prevent macroing it. Making combat where players should watch situation, think and press buttons only when it really change something, not just to hit mob, is much harder for design. Avoid it.
It's easy to contiunue... :-(
If you disagree - pick any of "top" MMOs, released this year, or a few years ago, and check them against listed above rules. Do the game follow them or no?
There was a few exceptions.... but that was long ago :-(
A+
Exam passed.
I think that one needs to establish that TOR will play and feel like KOTOR with an updated combat system but in multi player mode. The game will not be like traditional MMORPG's. It will not be a sandbox. It is not going to be the Star Wars saga of late. It will be story driven like Dragon Age or KOTOR. It will be a simplistic MMORPG. I would not expect the second coming from this game. I suggest downloading the UT III UDK and design the game you want to play. Some people will love TOR. And some people will hate it. Personally I think technology is 20 years away from what a star wars MMORPG should be. Either way I do feel strongly that BioWare will make a solid game in the Old Republic Time Era they are setting this game in. And it makes sense. Let it go. Eve is the Universe you are looking for when Incarna is released,
LOTRO's doing a pretty good job of preserving story and canon, creating a hero's path for each individual to solo which converge on group quests/raids. And this is (dare I say) not Turbine's forte.
If Turbine can do what they did with LOTRO, I have hopes that Bioware, with their *multiple* awesome story games, can do at least as well. I am more worried about the game mechanics.
I've found more replay value in Dragon Age than I did in KOTOR -- if they can even approach that sort of branchiness, I'll probably be collecting alts...! (how unSWGish)
Shava
1.) Play KotOR
2.) Be amazed
3.) ????
4.) PROFIT
Too much rage.
Did not read.
As I stated in my previous post on this thread, anyone who thought that there would only be one Force Wielder per faction after playing KOTOR was really kidding themselves. It was totally obvious that there would be more than one per faction.
The similarity in looks technologywise is explained by the Star Wars galaxy reaching a technological plateau. KOTOR had it's own look, but it still looked like the movies in some ways. This helped people identify with it. Same thing here with SW:TOR, although I do agree with the writer a little as BioWare seems to be nodding more towards the movies in SW:TOR than they did in KOTOR. For example the Republic Trooper armour looking more like Stormtrooper or Clonetrooper armour than the armour worn by either the Republic Soldiers or Sith Troppers in KOTOR.
As for Jedi Consulars and Sith Inquisitors being healbots - wrong again. They will have heals available to them and they will be able to improve on these healing powers by investing in that direction if they so wish. However, both of these classes also have offensive force powers (especially the S.I.) and are also required to melee with their sabers. There was even an article written about the Sith Inquisitor that explained that you could go down a more melee focused route with them and they would play like an acrobatic, lightly armoured melee/martial arts expert ala Darth Maul.
Other classes will also be able to heal, in fact the Smuggler if he goes down the Scoundrel route instead of the Gunslinger route will be just as capable at healing as Jedi Consular.
The author trying to pigeon-hole the classes into a holy trinity, healer, tanker, dpser traditional setup is just flat out wrong. The classes are not designed that way. Sure, you could roll a Jedi Consular and spend a lot of your points in healing and just run in groups and sit back and heal all day, but what fun would that be?
[Mod edit]
You definitely bring up some good points there. I myself like to consider myself a huge SW fan and there's some games that have been made (SW TFU for example) that absolutely disgust me in the way that they are preformed. Some of them just don't fit the Star Wars feel, or story like they should.
However, and please understand that this is just my opinion (however strongly opinionated I am), BioWare has yet to produce a game that I didn't absolutely fall in love with. In my opinion, they are the best at RPG's out there, especially when it comes to story; And, when they made the first KotOR, I think it was pure genius. Personally I think it was one of the best Star Wars games to ever launch. Personally, I think that this game has great potential to be a grand success, and I think that they are taking care to make sure to stick with the Star Wars feel that we know and love.
I really don' t think that it's going to be a disappointment at all in any way. I could end up wrong, but like I said, BioWare has never failed at making an excellent game. It's definitely a "ballsy" move, but with the gaming industry now depending so heavily on MMO's I think it's a smart move, as long as they take their time and do it right.
I guess my concerns are different than the ones in the article, however, i do understand his troubles.
Force Unleashed in particular, i enjoyed the game, i even played it to the end - for the supposed devout thats use to conservative force tossing here and there with a ballet of saber dueling, the game would just feel alien to them, and rightfully so.
Cringe if you must... Unleashed was about kicking ass with the force, period, they took a aspect of the game and amplified 5 times over. yet i myself was drawn to the game due to finishing up both KOTOR 1 and 2, hearing stories of great sith and jedi warriors using the force in unnatural, unconventional ways... Force Tornado anyone? draining the life from everything living being with in its radius?. with force unleashed, it was a attempt to add character to the force which they did going by reviews of various gaming sources-- yet despite the praise from me and those that have played and enjoyed the game-
Jedi Academy is still top dog... and in comparison, makes Force Unleashed feel like Harry potter with a glow stick ( saber combat as a after thought in that game)
Alright Digress time!
One thing is for certain, i know what to expect from Bioware, in whatever way shape or form it will be a game that we will recognize as "hey, this is a bioware game" and go from there.
However.
I am curious, very curious of how SWTOR will be structured?
Persistant world?, zoned areas?...or Instance Heavy?
I will not kid myself to think this is a mild concern, far too many times there are customers who are turned off when said MMO's leans too close to a 25 cent arcade game.
My only fear with this title is that EA will impose too many restrictions and unreasonable goals on the Bioware team. Bioware are beyond a doubt the best studio in existence for creating story driven games but EA's influence can clearly be seen in their latest title ME2, which has been dumbed down and aimed more at the FPS crowd to the detriment of it's RPG roots. If anyone can ruin a game EA can.
ROFL! And here I thought there were only 2 real SW movies :).
Consistency guys. You want Bioware to follow the magic codex, but don't blink an eye at *inventing* an entire 3rd faction in this time period which is clearly dominated by the Jedi/Sith war...? Please.
Have to disagree with this post. Clearly you did not play WAR very much because the pvp was horrendous to say the least, two factions does NOT make good pvp. It has been proven time and time again. Even if the classes were balanced it would not have saved it.
Soon as they announced classes I knew this game was going to be 2nd rate. Oh it will probably be fun to play, but it won't attract the long term crowd. This game is going to be just another wanna be.
I think that branding smugglers and bounty hunters in specific sides is a mistake. The game could surely support a third, criminal neutral faction. The war argument is bullshit. Switzerland anyone?
Edit - and I also think that the game automatically picking your side depending on class is bullshit too. Why cant we pick a initial faction and then switch later depending on our choices? What kind of star wars is this if jedi cant fall to the sith side and vice versa? And jedi falling to the dark side but still be part of the republic sounds absolutely stupid.
First off, you have to agree 3 factions wouldn't make much sense in this setting. The third 'neutral' faction would only catch a fraction of the Sith / Jedi (Republic) players, because it doesn't have the force users and doesn't really participate in the whole war.
Secondly, it's not very clear why people seem to be convinced 3 factions solves the whole RvR / PvP issue.
The most frequent argument for it seems to be that it divides the population better and allows people to team up against the larger faction. But as I state above, I believe a third faction doesn't make sense and would only attract a mere fraction of the population, so this argument is kind of null.
There are also other ways to make sure one faction doesn't outnumber the other greatly, look at what Aion did: put a block on rolling one faction if a server begins to become unbalanced, it worked there anyhow.
I also agree with nightfallrob in that the problems with WAR weren't only population based, it was also the whole grind, the bugs, the unbalanced classes etc.
You know even in the darkest or lightest places there are grey areas as there are Jedi, Sith and force users walking the thin grey line.
The third faction could be simply about not being openly with either the Siths or the republic. I think that's what many players would look for.
Not only it would be consistent but more realistic and logic. In that period of time, planets weren't all aligned toward one or the other side and both factions spend huge resources to bring some of them to their side.
Separating classes between 2 factions was an error. But I can understand the marketing gurus saying how WoW is doing great with that model. Same guys saying being unable to communicate with the other faction gives players a deep sense of belonging to their own faction.
Why do so few people understand that this is not KotOR the MMO? It's an entirely different game. It's not supposed to just be about the jedi characters. If anything, they're a minor part of the Star Wars universe. It's like using Hollywood to describe the entirety of the USA. At least half of the criticism I read for this game is just about whether or not it will be like KotOR. And the other half is about whether it will be like WoW. Can we please look at the game by itself?
Force users are balanced with non force users. Leveling up will take place in a mostly solo environment. Once you get past those two points, the rest of the game looks pretty cool. There seems to be a wide range of locations. The classes have very different playstyles. On the whole, the game looks pretty solid. I only worry about how much community and group play there will be in the game. A big, online, dungeon crawler is fine, but I like my MMOs a little more MM.
Honestly, you're all bickering about the wrong things. Gameplay and mechanics will make or break this game not that fact that the cannon lore is skewed.
This game will initially draw in many players but I seriously doubt they will retain any of the pre cu swg vets longer than a few months, and it will all boil down to being stuck in an iconic NGE-wow-type clone. Im sorry but theres way too much I see developing with this game that absolutely stinks of the NGE. I also see them trying to rip off more wow features as well. Yes they are trying to cater to the casual wow player. And yes it fkn sucks balls..
Jedi should be secret and un-lockable class.. ( something to play for) or I.E RETENTION...
skills vs class system is a no brainer.. Skill systems own any and all class and level system for the simple fact you're not locked into any particular role thus giving the illusion of freedom and realism. Another thing not being locked into a class system did was remove the need for a second and third or fourth character slots... So no alts... no hiding your identity.. You were unique and your conduct in game would eventually be known to all who played alongside you.. This whole deal of multiple character slots and crap that wow and eq2 have forced unto us promotes griefing and underhanded gameplay which would be eliminated with the 1 character slot skill system.
Yes I will play this game at launch but I have serious doubts it will retain my interest or my money much longer than 3-6 months.
I liked the idea of gaining rifle experience by using a rifle, or gaining 1 handed swords experience by using 1 handed swords.. Why isn't there more mainstream, well known IP's developed into games like this.. ffs.. Dont give us the masterpiece that was the original SWG skill system, then this pos-hacked-up-wow version of bioware story driven dog $hit... I mean look at the frigging UI in tor.. I seriously puked in my mouth when I saw NGE written all over that ui.. What a waste of resources LA/bioware.. I never did like bioware sw games.. Too much story and crappy mechanics..
I am bit worn out these days, so I just say this poster said all I would have to say as well. Nothing the Op wrote really concerns me, like 4 force classes or armor or lightsaber styles. *shrug*
I seem to have fallen into this magical fantasy land where SWG wasn't losing tons of subscribers before they even thought about the CU or NGE that these pseudointellectuals live in. Read some of the dev blogs and attempt to get over yourselves.
While the art style isn't going to make or break the game for me, I too have noticed an overwhelming similarity of the armor, weapons, and technology from the Old Republic period to the time frame from the movies. Perhaps though, the most interesting similarity is the symbol for the Sith "Empire" is the exact same symbol that the Galactic Empire used in the movies, and the republic symbol is the same as the Galactic Alliance symbol from the EU book series.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
For the record i hated the star wars game The force unleached i refuse to play that stupid game and for many reasons .
So i completely agree here with the OP , am not worried about bioware with Tor i think they will please many of us and thousands will still play their mmo when it launches .
Go Bioware !
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
As for this article...I don't find it very compelling. The Jedi had a Lightsaber combat style based on using two weapons. I DO feel it is nit-picking to discriminate between using two weapons and using a double-ended lightsaber, and I'm a massive Star Wars nerd.
Also, as others pointed out, it seems poorly researched. Consulars and Inquisitors are NOT wizards. They don't sit back and cast spells. As people who have played them at events have noted, if you do that, you hurt yourself. A Consular is going to be up front attacking with their lightsaber like a Knight. The big difference is that the Knight has a lot of lightsaber abilities and the Consular has a lot of force abilities (and from what I hear this makes the playstyle quite different).
I really think this is not going to be an MMO as we are familiar with. In fact most of premium games coming out anymore are drifting away from the standard MMORPG layout. There was an article just written about STO about this.
With SWTOR, I think we will see something more of a MassEffect co-op game with a ton of content. There will have to be a ton of content to make a story driven game with a monthly sub. For what is the point of a monthly sub if you run out of content after 3 weeks? At least this is what I am hoping. Enough content to keep people interested for 6+months. That requires a huge starting game world, and a constant dedication to expanding it.
I certainly would not mind if it were a single player/ small co-op game Mass Effect style. Hell, I wish Mass Effect 2 had enough content to keep me playing forever, and I would be happy to pay a sub fee for that. Especially if there were a MP aspect to it.
As far as the nitpicking for geeks... It is a Star Wars game... by Bioware. Be happy.
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles.
You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player.
If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg.
The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
lolwut.
DnD is not an MMO (unless you count DDO, which has a trinity system). Battlemech also isn't an MMO. Guild Wars has trinity. WoW PVP is trinity minus taunts.
So in short you just destroyed your own point. That happen often?
How does that destroy my point? What does an MMO combat system need? It needs a way for a group of people to be challenged. Every system I mentioned does that, and the same thing could be translated (and has been translated in the past) over to computer games. There's no reason they couldn't form the basis of an MMO combat system. That's my point.
Apparently you think that when I was citing combat systems that could be used in an MMO I should restrict myself to the HT-saturated MMO market? Is innovation or even outright copying a (non-mmo) system is impossible to you?
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
You SWG refugees are a delusional bunch. Played on Corbantis(iirc) for the first six months as a carbineer(sure loved killing myself because of the retarded HAM bar...) and only stuck around so long because I was a SW fanboy. From the onset the class balance, lack of content, and combat were terrible. Why would you force somebody to either sit in front of a dancing idiot or find another player to allow you to go back to hunting? That was a dreadfully awful idea. Crafter based economy where prices got out of control much like they are currently in Eve. I suppose that's a one of the major flaws of those types of systems. Run to this spot on the map, kill the spawned mobs, and return or take the role of a UPS employee were about the only missions I ended up suffering through.
I'm so sick of you guys pretending it was such a fantastic game. There were some good aspects but overall it was bad, and people need to drop the "Old Girlfriend Syndrome". I can't believe so many people enjoyed spending their time trying to fill their houses with useless crap. I mean you are defending a sci-fi Sims Online where it was more of a job than a game. Should I even bring up the fact that entire classes were incomplete at launch? I had some fun while playing this game, but claiming it was a gift from the Gods to the MMO genre is provably wrong. Stop living in denial SWG refugees.
Some people need to remove the blinders and look at what is available in the genre. The Holy Trinity method is just one of the many ways MMO's have achieved success. Neither UO nor AC1 had the holy trinity, nor does Eve with a more modern approach. Classes and HT are just lazy developers trying to get a product to market fast, it has nothing to do with building a good MMO.
If you can't remove the blinders and see this than I really feel quite sorry for you.
No, I just don't think you should cite MMOs that have trinity as examples of MMOs that's done have trinity. Makes you look like you enjoy the shrooms more than intelligent debate.
I was not trying to make you look stupid. I was pointing out you made yourself look stupid by citing MMOs that have trinity as examples for non-trinity systems.
Frankly, even if it were my intent to make you look stupid, I freely admit I could not have topped you.
EVE Online is nothing like WoW or even TOR. It's just unrealstic to expect TOR to follow it's systems when it's a game about player characters and not spaceships.
UO and AC1 were financial misteps, why would any sane developer try to copy them?
You're talking to people who don't want a game that has a massive population. They want a niche game and feel that people who prefer the tried and true method from a group that has yet to release an mmo are automatically children. These same goofballs would rather see a company take a multi-million dollar gamble instead of playing it safe the first time around.
The author is putting is own personal biases on a universe that Bioware essentially created. It may be Star Wars, but Bioware created the Old Republic for KOTOR, KOTOR II, and this game.
Who cares that certain classes are depicted wielding double bladed lightsabers? And who came up with that "double bladed lightsabers are difficult to wield and frowned upon by the Jedi Council" hogwash anyway? As far as I know Bioware never included that crap in the Old Republic universe they created (in fact, I seem to recall one Bastila Shan wielding a double bladed lightsaber.) Who cares if the Sith Warrior class looks like Vader? Obviously they were going for warriors using Vader as a template and Sith Inquisitors using the Emperor as a template. Who cares what the speederbike looks like? What a dumb thing to nitpick.
I would bet money that what Bioware does with this IP will surpass what George himself has done since return of the jedi.Im playing mass effect 2 right now and these guys are dead set geniuses. the story and the detail and the plausability is so frakking awesome Im probably more a fan of mass effect lore now than Starwars. Which is a pretty big statement given that I love starwars a great deal. I was one of those fans that was majorly burned by the crappiness of the episodes so I guess I'm in the camp that thinks a company like Bioware couldnt do anything worse than has already been done by the abusive father of the franchise.
If you dont count actually creating the saga, george lucas was the worst thing that happened to star wars. Like the previous poster, I agree that bioware has done more for it than lucas has. Of course, short of creating the franchise in the first place.
Tanks are currently useless in WoW's PVP because you don't have to deal with them if there was collision detection they'd have a much greater role.Save vanilla PVP teams in WSG that had the guys in AQ40 gear run the flags(soooo fun). I do recall the prot warrior and even the prot paladin being popular in arena at times, but even then the concept is still there somebody takes the damage while somebody is healing. Guild wars I can't speak for.
Amen, and god knows I'm not very fond of many BioWare choices for TOR.
SWG was a good game. In order to enjoy playing it you had to be intelligent and figure out how the bonuses from the various classes stacked. That was what made it good. Instead of having a single suite of abilities with some optional "specializations" that are only tweaks on abilities you already have, you actually had real flexibility in designing who your character was and how they operated. That is what we miss. Every other game out there specifically pigeon holes you into one class and that class develops as you go. In SWG you could master two elite professions or pick up specific skill trees from different professions to create your own unique character. Until the dark times, until the NGE lol. I have tried WoW, LOTRO, AoC, Everquest II, and WAR. None of those MMOs offer that level of character flexibility, and I haven't seen or heard of any others that do (and if anybody knows of any please let me know). I'm interested in SWTOR because Bioware tells great stories and I like Star Wars and KOTOR and KOTOR II.
Look man, the people who are deeply interested in this game want it for the story. We're a little tired of "go out and kill X number of things." We enjoy having a plot motivating character actions. As for jedi not being immediately available this is happening 3000 years+ before when they were wiped out. Why wouldn't they be available. Far more so than at any other time, this is when the Jedi and Sith influence history. If what you want is no story and game mechanics I recommend chess, the mechanics are easy to learn, tricky to execute, and it assists with strategic thought and focus.
You did not address any of the points I made. You ignored everything I said up until the game not being good. Instead you offered your opinion about how you liked to group with other people who enjoyed the terrible game, and how you enjoyed the awful class balance. I've figured out why I hate SWG refugees so much THEY ALL ARGUE LIKE CREATIONISTS. Ignoring the facts and reason just covering their eyes and ears screaming "DOES NOT!!!"....
I thing that the Op and some poster fail to remember is that anyhting being done has to go thru george Lucas for approval. If he approves it, it cannon!.
(BBBBBBBBBWWWWWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH raise plunger in salute to Star Wars!)
RvR:
I am currious about this issue. I know in game that there will be light and dark points to gain, lose. If you are a Jedi Knight, but kill everyone and everything to turn to the dark side. Are you still on the light side? Or will you become a part of the dark side and fight against other Jedi? IF you are a Sith, can you do only good and turn to the light side and fight with them?
Neutral players as you put them. Can you as a player walk the line between light and dark and balance it out so you can help either side for profit? Enemy of both or friend to both could be possible?
It would be a great feature IMHO if the light and dark makes up who is your friend or enemy more than the class choice when you start the game. It would make your character more unique to you and alow for a more diverse population.
Story arc:
I see this playing out as two different games within the total game. What I mean is the story arc would difine your character as it levels as well as who you can group with. This would be like a quest chain that needs to be done before you can run the dungeon quest. Eveyone needs to be on the same chain. You may have to not run something with a friend because he wants to do it differently. The rest of the game would be the typical MMO open quests and grouping instances that have nothing to do with your story. You could do any of these quests with friends as much as you want.
You as a player would use the story to gain light and dark points as well as skills as you level. It will alow you to develope your own unique character through the story. The story created by Bioware will lead you to different planets that have much more than just your personal story arc. There will be a lot going on that you could help out with and group up for on any given planet.
This could give you the best of both worlds. You could play start to finish with your companion through the story arc. Never having to play with anyone else if you want. At the same time, you could branch out and play with a group full time. Only going back to your story when your friends arn't online or you just want to level and learn some new skills.
This game could obviously have a lot more than we have seen. We have only really seen what is different. That is the story arc that Bioware is so good at. But this will be an MMO. The worlds that they have shown with the amount of detail in the videos tell me that there will be much much more to each world than just the story arc. If they add in a fairly decent crafting system with open world harvesting and PvP. This could be one of the best MMO's ever. But right now it is just a good idea yet to be shown.
There's the Sith Empire and the Republic. They've said at LAUNCH there's no plan to switch sides. A Dark Jedi will use vile methods to protect the Republic (which in many ways makes more sense then switching sides). A Light Sith Warrior will try to reform the Sith Empire (and probably there will be people there that will try to kill him).
In the future, who knows? Perhaps there will be intra-faction PvP with Dark vs. Light as well as inter-faction. Perhaps there will also be side-switching.
There's the Sith Empire and the Republic. They've said at LAUNCH there's no plan to switch sides. A Dark Jedi will use vile methods to protect the Republic (which in many ways makes more sense then switching sides). A Light Sith Warrior will try to reform the Sith Empire (and probably there will be people there that will try to kill him).
In the future, who knows? Perhaps there will be intra-faction PvP with Dark vs. Light as well as inter-faction. Perhaps there will also be side-switching.
That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing it up for me. It seems strange that you can try to defend the Republic through vile methods. Or a sith that wants to reform anything through light side powers. So it will end up a streight RvR regardless of allignment. I guess it will be easier for the programs with PvP balancing.
It would be nice in the future to offer a story arc to switch sides. But content will be much more important for launch.
Well it is possible they will fall short in the MMORPG market, but I doubt it.
Bioware has proven that they know how to do content, so odds are TOR will be generally recieved as an enjoyable game.
I think it is important to note the difference between the average gamer, and the 'hardcore fan'.
The average gamer only cares about the game being fun. They wont fling their mouse out the window because there is some violation of canon -- most gamers wont even notice most violations of canon, tbh.
I am sure the hardcore fans will find fault with TOR, but the average gamer (basically 90% of their potential customer base) will be more concerned about TOR just being a fun game to play.
I'm still trying to figure out how the OP didn't have a stroke after watching the "cinematic abortion" that was The Phantom Menace.
There is a simple reason for that: I valued the class flexibility enough to tolerate the rest. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you missed the point. The only point I was making, and the only one that mattered to me as I played the game, was that I had a ton of flexibility in designing and speccing my character. Yes, the classes were poorly balanced, that was why the combat upgrade happened. Because of the flexibility of the classes none of us who enjoyed the game at that time cared. That is what you're missing, and failing to understand, and finding so frustrating. I'm not a creationist, I'm a control freak lol. I want my character to be mine. And that was how everyone who stuck with the game through the CU and then left after the NGE felt. There were plenty of other irritating issues as well, but the one I found that struck a chord with everyone I knew and talked to was that the class system was transformed into something horrible, inane, and incredibly stupid. We were willing to put up with the other crap in order to have access to such a flexible character class system. Once that went away, so did we.
Liking an aspect of the game does not make it a good game. I liked the classes and the community in Earth and Beyond and it was still a bad game with a complete lack of pvp, inflated economy, and inefficient when it came to the leveling system. Not to mention what happened when EA secretly decided they were killing it and the devs wouldn't even communicate that decision for months after. If a game has many gaping holes it is a BAD game. People need to stop with the nostalgia and move forward.
Seeing posts from people claiming it was the greatest game ever made makes me vomit in my mouth a little bit.
The best way I see to go about the whole grouping conundrum is to have an entire storyline built around the group experience and keep the class stuff as a solo experience.
Theres so many star wars stories out there. I play mmorpg's to make my own.
So it's the player's fault because the carbineer motto was somthing along the lines of "Killing ourselves so you don't have to" and that in reality if you didn't have another player babysitting you while hunting you'd do far more damage to yourself than to your intended target? How about when the Commandos didn't actually advance when using their skills? Crafting classes missing key reagents... Got milk?
You are beyond dense... It's like the idiot MAX users at the start of Planetside claiming that if we didn't like how strong MAX units were we should all re-cert to MAX's or get in a tank. Naturally you learned to avoid the weak classes and play the better ones congratulations on being as good at mmo's as your average mouth-breathing, 12-year-old, Rogue in Vanilla WoW.
Actually, socializing is where you leave your parent's basement, get in a car, and go hang out with real people in the real world. Why am I paying to sit in a virtual bar watching a sprite dance around me so I can regenerate enough to actually play the game. People who enjoyed that were sad excuses for human beings.
So in your opinion the fact that there was NO diversity in these quests, insane travel distances, and crap rewards is a win-win scenario? I'm going to go ahead and chalk that one up to insanity.
Thanks for confirming my point about the pseudo-intellectualism. Everybody who quit SWG before the CU and NGE were idiots! They were all children! The developers who created your game who admitted it was bad were morons too! Playing "Virtual Barbie" where I could be a musician with a lovely house was marketing genius. I've actually found the game you guys are looking for it's called Second Life. Hell, all you'd need to do is find a Star Wars mod for it and you could relive classic PRE-CU/NGE SWG!
As I mentioned before.... Commandos, Carbineers, a few crafting classes(scroll up and see the "Got Milk" comment). Of the crafting classes that did work at the start the items they made were utterly useless.
Being that my opinion is based on facts which can be backed up with subscribing population vs sales, issues that you yourself admitted(even if you skipped over them), forcing myself to play the game in the hopes that I could forgive all the other crap about it, developer blogs about the game's state... I think I can safely say that not only are you wrong and too nostalgic for a game that was never good, but also you're smoking something if you think the boys over at Bioware would be stupid enough to doom their game from the start by making it anything like that horribly executed, incomplete, unbalanced, "empty parking lot" game.
Good day, sir.
Hurm... so much anger there is about something that not even here is. XD
"Watching the main character yank a Star Destroyer out of the sky using The Force really sealed the deal for me never wanting to touch the game."
Better get used to it if you plan on playing Biowares' game ( I don't, by the way ). Remember Bastilas' "Battle Meditation" that could take out entire friggin' fleets? lol
I found article, while written, to be silly. Here is an excellent example of too much knowledge being a bad thing.
Example: of course they made more than 2 of the 8 classes force users. Why? Because that's what many players are going to want to do! It makes sense to sacrifice lore in terms of gameplay, because it'll attract more players than being strictly adherent to story. Of course it will be mostly a single-player experience; that is the trend of MMOs today and it's what will bring in the most dollars.
More dollars means more development which is good for all players.
Look, I get that you're dedicated. I was outraged when I saw Spiderman using organic web-shooters. But the decisions make sense and your concerns are frivolous, in the sense that they will not detract from the game except for possibly encyclopedic-knowledged fans like yourself.
Very interesting article, and pretty nitt-picky analysis.
As stated in some answers already, it is the sacrifice we will have to accept - with the funds being pumped in, Bioware wants to make sure they keep most of the people after the first months and for that the masses are necessary. Original trilogy for the old-timer die-hard SW fans, and the newish clone-wars style for the younger SW generation.
Sigh, I would so like to have the mentioned non-exisitng third-faction to enjoy e.g. bounty hunter or smuggler. Skillbased please! then I could decide on the way if I want to go for healer, nuker, or whatever. But I guess it won't be happening and I will end up playing a glow-stick wielder......
*shrugs*
All Battle meditation did was increase the morale and focus of an army. It didn't make things explode or fly around or magically make blasters do more damage or anything (from a lore perspective anyway, it may added an extra +1 to attack gameplay wise representing the morale boost or something I'm not sure).
I'm in the British Army so I can tell you from first-hand experience how important Morale is in a conflict.
i hear this voice in my head when i hear/read the words "The old Republic"....it keeps saying "Fail". funny, because i heard the same thing when i would read/hear the words "star Trek online". strange....
Bioware wont rush this game to meet an unrealistic launch date like Cryptic did. Also it should be noted that Bioware and Cryptic have different track records. Let's all make snap judgments before the game hits beta. Bang-up job on condemning the boys for trying to make a game that'd attract subscribers beyond people who go to Star Wars conventions.
When i first heard about the game i got excited to have an MMO with possibly a much higher immersion than what we currently have on the table. Common sense soon set in. Bioware are an outstanding company and they know how to tell a story, if i can get enjoyment out of TOR like i do out of their single player games for even only a month or two then it will be money well spent. If they really pull the hat out of the bag and make something i can see myself in for a year or more then fantastic, either way as long as i gain a new gaming experience from it i'll be happy. I doubt very much they'll fail completely.
for a "Star Wars geek" he gets one point flat out wrong:
"Sure, I’ve got some nitpicks, such as calling the warrior Jedi class the Jedi Knight (which is a rank) as opposed to the Jedi Guardian, which would be more appropriate."
No it wouldn't. Canoninicly, the Guardian was never a school until KOTOR, and even then it only existed in the p&p RPG. Consular and Knight were BOTH ranks of the Jedi Order (Consulars being a rank in the diplomatic arm, Knights a rank in the soldier/peacekeeper arm). To quote ProfessorWalsh (apparent guru on the SWTOR official forums):
"In the lore there was a rank known as Consular. There never was a Guardian. The fact is they aren't classes anymore, heck the Consular tree has nothing to do with using the Force offensively it is all about diplomacy.
So you are championing a change to Guardian because of what? It was in KotOR? It used to be a class in the old RPG?
It isn't in the lore. It isn't a class in the RPG. It simply doesn't need to be named Guardian."
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"Outside of some of the minutiae that made Dark Age of Camelot’s RvR better than Warhammer Online’s, what was one key departure that turned out to make all the difference in WAR’s experience being far inferior? The lack of a third faction! If BioWare means to have any sort of meaningful RvR offerings in The Old Republic, it will be quite challenging with only two factions."
I will agree that a third faction would be a nice alternative. However, anyone who played Dark Age of Camelot for any extended period of time remembers how Mythic struggled keeping all three balanced, never achieving true harmony. It was still the most fun PvP I've ever had in a game, but the constant swings in the population to FOTM realms made our collective heads hurt.
SWG promised three factions at launch. What we got was a Hutt theme park instead of a promised smuggler faction. I'd rather them make two factions really fun than not deliver on a third. Hell, I'll be happy if they can balance the two and not make monumental class changes every patch, forcing me to relearn how to play (I'm looking at YOU Blizzard!).
Loved the article because it had all the same fears I have. When they announced the two more force using classes, a little bit of me died inside. With only 8 classes at launch, why put in 4 force users this early? If they waited until an expansion the counselor, and sith lord would have made a lot more sense instead of having the 4 force users at the beginning. Dividing them up really only gives players fewer options in the game, and MMORPG's are all about options! So basically if you don't want to play a force user, you only have 4 options, that is very few in an MMO, with not a lot of replay ability.
Of course we still don't really know how everything is supposed to work, only that it is a story driven game, no idea on the group mechanics, if there are even going to be any. No idea on how freely we will be able to explore, if at all without the confines of the story. Heck we still don't know if we can actually choose between different races, all we have seen from a play ability sense is humans, we have seen other races true, but for all we know that is just for the little npc's we get to take with us(forget what they are called atm). And that is another thing that currently concern's me because they have made no mention of play ability for different races! We can only hope.
And let's not forget what makes star wars, well star wars! Space, space exploration, space combat ect. We have no clue about that! Also would have loved it if they put in your idea of a third neutral faction, would have made the game even more star wars, but at every turn(no matter how excited I was at the beginning) they seem to be going down a road that doesn't seem to translate well into an MMORPG, and that concerns me most of all!
I think the article is a little over the top and silly for this early stage of development. Also this story takes place in a time when Jedi and Sith flourished. Their are something like 20 different kind of Jedi, Two Jedi classes allow for 4 different type of Jedi over just two. Same can be said for the Sith. Look at it this way. You have a gun weilding Trooper. Why would you need another class that has a gun? Because the Smuggler will play different and have it's own unique rolls.
Jedi Warrior could be a Guardian or a Jedi Shadow-Knight (hunted sith) Investigator. All would be something made by creating a Jedi Warrior.
Jedi Consular could be a Healer, Advisor, Diplomat or a Mystic. All could be made by rolling a Consular. Very different aspects of the Jedi. Again same could be said about the sith. This game is the first to address this over all generic "Jedi"
Also picking on things like armor and how the use of duel-bladed lightsaber works, really show that the writer has not read many of the Star Wars books or has forgotten the content. Kinda of a poor read. First time a MMORPG article I have read was way off base.
I look forward to your posts a month after release.
Let's be honest with ourselves. STO has issues spawning from jumping dev teams while it was in it's infancy. They were also forced to release months before the product was ready to meet a deadline. I'll be surprised if EA makes the same mistake they did with WAR and rushes another unfinished game. They've already pushed it back twice now and they've been working on it for over 4 years.
After reading the article, I did find the concept of a consular and an inquisitor having a kick-ass double lightsaber odd.
Since they are DPS ranged for their respective talents, maybe a bog standard light saber would be better, with standard and double sided light sabers available to the warrior / knight classes?
There are a couple of things in your article that show an outright lack of knowledge about the game as well as a lack of knowledge regarding a few pieces of Star Wars lore.
Namely your concern over double bladed lightsabers and the name of the jedi classes.
Warriors as well we Knights will be able to use double bladed lightsabers...this has been clarified in several articles on the website's forums.
The Jedi "guardian" class is actually a very recent and subjective piece of canon. It was actually created by the Star Wars roleplaying game and later canonized by its inclusion in The Essential Guide to the Force.. So really, it's not so much of a misstep by Bioware as it is a choice that could have to do with story mechanics. A Jedi Knight in the game can choose to specialize as a Jedi sentinel would, therefore it wouldn't make sense to call him a Jedi Guardian. Giving the class a rank name means that there is a possibility within the story of becoming a jedi master with some other sort of specialization. If anything, you should be excited about this possibility, not angry that they got a class name wrong.
For the record, I too abhor the idea that Darth maul was a Sith inquisitor (that's what they are trying to shell on their website) and think that double bladed lightsabers should be limited to melee combat classes. Your theory on the "mage staff" thing might hold some ground..it's unfortunate that they would do that in order to fill an analogous role instead of doing what makes the most sense. The double bladed lightsaber is a melee weapon, not a freaking magical staff.
Another fear of mine since the announcement of these classes is the constant depiction of the Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular wielding double-bladed lightsabers. This makes absolutely no sense, as the double-bladed lightsaber is both incredibly hard to master, and also quite rare. The use of such a lightsaber was actually frowned upon by the Jedi Council, no less! Yet it appears to be, perhaps exclusively, available to the Sith Inquisitor and Consular.
You call yourself a stars fan but you fell to realize that this is thousands of years before the rise of Darth Vader. Double-bladed lightsabers could have been very common in this era i'm going to have faith in bioware there track record is good.
From what I gathered he(Maul) was simply an inspiration for the melee spec of the class and not actually considered an Inquisitor. He was a shallow character that I can't comprehend the reverence for.
All Jedi are trained in the Lightsabre. Picking the type of sabre a Jedi uses is personal. It has been confirmed the ToR Double-bladed Sabre can be used by other Jedi and Sith. Making a issue on this is moot. As to how many used it... Little is written on this time period.
Quality of the game all depends on the company.
All the WoWbois say it will flop like every other MMO, but Blizzard doesn't make bad games, neither does Bioware.
They're both companies who know what they're doing, Bioware is better at story telling, so that's one element they'll add to MMOs. I see no real solid reason why the game would flop, since an entire game of this magnitude won't flop because "The sith warrior wears armor, wahh"
Was NWN 2 a good agme? Not trolling, i played NWN 1 and didnt touch 2 as i read at release it was very buggy.
You're correct as they tend to only make their games bad well after release(WoW).
Was NWN 2 a good agme? Not trolling, i played NWN 1 and didnt touch 2 as i read at release it was very buggy.
Are you bringing up NWN2, that game developed by Obsidian Entertainment.....?
You can stop there, because SOE has never released population or subscription numbers for SWG, nor have any of the developer blogs that you've mentioned. Your opinion that the game was bad is perfectly valid, as all opinions are. But don't come on here and confuse your preferences with 'facts.'
You can stop there, because SOE has never released population or subscription numbers for SWG, nor have any of the developer blogs that you've mentioned. Your opinion that the game was bad is perfectly valid, as all opinions are. But don't come on here and confuse your preferences with 'facts.'
Game, set, match....
Lol, Woodcock's projections are your big win?
MMkay. Try again when the actual company that made the product chooses to release accurate numbers.
And again, my young apprentice, it's fine that you thought the game sucked. The beauty of life though is that you don't get to make that decision for everyone else. Many people liked it.
Here endeth the lesson.
So even with the dev's claiming 300,000(and a success from their words) and charts backing this up you still claim that it's false. I can see that my statement before was right on. It really is like fighting with creationists.
Oh and remember they sold over 1,000,000 units...
No dude, you just don't get it at all. No one is saying the game didn't lose subs, of course it did.
Losing subs does not equal "it sucked."
Your disconnect here is both comical and troubling. A lot of people still play the game. Do they think it sucks? Probably not. You're so focused on your own little self-centered bubble that you think your opinion of a game extends to everyone else.
The sooner you realize you're not the center of the universe, the faster you'll grow up. Keep tossing around the insults though, and bring religion into the thread if you want. It just makes you look even younger.
Aside from all that, what charts are you referring to? Link me something from SOE or LA that shows subs, player retention, revenue, anything. I'm waiting.
Again, Bruce Woodcock is a freelance consultant that makes projections on mmorpg populations. He is not an authority, as he does not have data officially sanctioned by the companies of most of the games he purports to know about. Believe his stats if you want, but they're not bulletproof. He's a blogger who is often quoted by the misinformed.
If you want to debate facts with me, bring some real facts, and not random google crap that shakily supports your argument.
The words of the president of SOE are clearly stated. What I was pointing to was the number of units sold vs the max number of subscribers(as confirmed by John Smedley) The fact that I watched all my friends and guildies quit was just personal insight.
Ah, so you're grasping around for random nuggets that support your insightful "it sucks" argument. I still haven't seen any links, btw, just a bunch of stuff you've copied and pasted that I guess I'm supposed to take your word for.
In any event, I'm done with this one, people still pay for and enjoy the game, which is really all it takes to invalidate just about everything you've said in this thread.
Look up strawman when you get some time, it will help you out in the future.
/salute
This article was a bunch of BS. I played KOTOR not that long ago again. Guess what, every single one of my light side jedi's were able to use a double bladed lightsaber quite effectly. Bastilla (a jedi) starts with a double bladed light saber for crying out loud. The story in Kotor & Kotor 2 is incredible. On the other hand, the recent movies have been duds.
KOTOR is what Bioware needs to base the game on, not this BS about SWG. SWG died long ago. Let it rest in peace. The lore needs to flow from Kotor.
I can see your point in a lot of the continuity issues you're having, I agree that the biggest reason that consulars and the inquistors will get dual bladed sabers is due to the fact it feels more like a staff and i agree that, that shouldn't be the case due to the difficulty of the saber type. However, there are some things I don't agree with you on. Such as, the "having healers" bit, the reason they are going to actually have healers is due to actual play mechanics. Can you really visualize some sort of raid or really intense fight without some healing going on? I mean sure they could make the companions be responsible for that sort of thing but do you really want your heals in the hands of an npc? I can see where some people not being that great at healing classes and stuff the npc would be the better option lol but really, you need warm bodies for that sort of thing. Also due to the fact all of these things are going across George Lucas' desk isn't helping the game any...I mean i love the premise of Star Wars, absolutely love it, however George is a horrible director/writer lol. His influence doesn't really give Bioware a helping hand in the game. Over all though, most of what you said I can agree/relate with. I'll pray to the gods of star wars games that this one actually turns out good.
Are you bringing up NWN2, that game developed by Obsidian Entertainment.....?
Was it ? maybe thats why it was buggy then. Strange Bioware didnt make it after the success of NWN.
Yep.
More money to be had in making easier games.
Ya know what I'm "that guy" too when it comes to Star Wars I still have a book shelf with every Star Wars novel in my game room but I think for me personally I'm just done with the entire mmo communities whining nit picking with anything released. A sentiment I've found myself repeating over and over again lately is that I'm a gamer first mmo player second and one of the biggest reasons again is that mmo players simply can't get it out of there heads that every single product cannot and will not be made in the perfect mold of what we envision and more so the mmo community makes up it's mind as soon as it is evident things aren't going to bve the way they want it that the product is all bad (or atleast bad enough to do nothing but complain about it.)
Personally I don't miss the days when we just played the games we were given as opposed to spending more time telling people how we think the games should be made because I still live in that world but I do wish that others who seem to take games as seriously as I do did.
If I had the money or the reputation to make a SW game the way I wanted to I'd feel my opinion about the direction it could or should go in held some relevance, and this is a forced attitude because everyone has an opinion about how games should be made and I really am at the point of seeing this as the only way of validating any opinion at all. So yes I long for the day when I can read Craig Morrison tell me that Cryptic did wrong and what he would do if Funcom had STO because right now all these random anonymous opinions are just noise.
amen.
Are you Flipping serious...A. there are Six Star Wars movies as anyone who should post under this topic should know. B. there are three Matrix movies in total! The Matrix, Reloaded and Revolution!
So yes, I am Sure.
Indeed. The Jedi have an entire lightsaber combat style around fighting with two lightsabers (or with a double lightsaber). To say nothing of how the article is flat-out wrong about how this works in game. Any Force user can use a single lightsaber, double, or two seperate lightsabers. It is NOT a "caster staff" for the more mystic force users.
I have noticed posts here relating to people who bad mouthed the way that SWG pre cu was done. What was wrong with it? Was it boring? No. Was it cannon? No. What was the problem. There are possible issues with this game, but ya start crying crying about cannon and ya pretty much sunk it as with the pre cu. They catered to whiners and look what happens. Lets hope that TOR isn't the same. And btw, for those of you that think that SWG was meant to be without Jedi are incorrect. SOE was working on putting them in but ran out of time while trying to put them in the way they wanted them in. To add to that, there is no reason why Jedi shouldn't be in the game, and deffinately no reason why it couldn't be cannon. Sadly the kiddies made what coulda been more cannon suck due to SOE's greedy nature. There was plenty non cannon elements in the game. Now for this one, who cares whether it is cannon in your eyes or not? Let them make it, and try to like it. If you don't, you don't.
Altho i will most likely try this game , i am hoping that as development rolls on that some serious changes are made ,the direction that Bioware is taking this game is not indicitive of a traditional MMO , the more i read the more it sounds like a MSORPG not an MMO, posssibly further testing will bring some changes..
From PC GAmer who recently got to play the current build "SWToR plays more like DA than it does WoW" fill in the Wow with any current mmo ... A companion pet system for everyone troubles me , from Bioware " The game can be completed without any interaction with another player" Huhhhhh!!
I really like the SW ip and want to see this game succeed BUT , when i read stuff like this from a recent interview with there devs at E3 it makes me cringe...
The Flash Point scene was a private, closed off area for only you and someone you brought along from the looks of it. no other players, so it is safe to assume this was a single player area. We saw some people on Hutta, but they were just going about their normal business.
As the devs told us, the majority of the game can be done without a single bit of help from another player. They said that the main appeal of MMOs is the experience single player with the option of being with other players. They confirmed that names, chat, and so on could all be turned off or ignored if you really, really wanted absolutely nothing to do with other people.
Names:
Naming filters have been confirmed. No numbers, special characters, or Star Wars names. They emphasized the strictness of this system, as they seemed to agree on the assumption it could be immersion, if not game breaking.
If they want to make KOTOR 3 thats great but dont rap it up with optional coop play and slap a monthly sub on it..
When every lvl 30 (insert class) is running around in the same exact gear and none needs any help to aquire anything... blehhh
There will be no sense of community , no need for community
Good points there heh.
You seem to have a reading problem. They said "most of the game" could be done without help. That's how almost all MMOs are these days, certainly WoW is like that. It certainly doesn't mean you can get the best gear without doing any group content (and there IS group-only content).
The original SWG was awesome but no perfect. I agree SWG combat and class systems should not have been touched. Im afraid a lot of people are hoping the SWTOR will be everything that we wanted from SWG, but its not going to be. When this comes out i probably will give it a try but i have my doubts how much i will like this game. Its sad for me to say but i doubt we will ever have the Star Wars game we all wished SWG could have become.
i
Good.
Bringing the strengths of RPGs into the MMO genre is exactly what is needed, in my opinion, and there are none better than BioWare to do so.
As far as I'm concerned, there has never been an MMORPG, and this promises to finally be one.
The idea behind the double edged saber resembling a "mage staff" and the "tank" esque classes having vader type armor is a way to make core mmo players feel comfortable, i think. I don't think its a bad thing, although i would much rather BW take their own direction in terms of class makeups and styles, but it all comes back to what makes money. If some WoW kiddie can look at a mage/healer class and see a "saber-staff-looking-gear" set he would cream his pants, im sure, potentially drawing him to their game. Personally I dont share the same attention to the "finer detail" as the OP nor do i really care what class follows what IP rule. But I have faith in Bioware to pull it off, though it will be a rough ride I agree.
Yes its Star Wars, yes the movies/games (some of them) are/were great, but that doesnt mean not following the IP rules verbatim would make for a lackluster game.
I do agree with the OP about the mission overlaps but I'm sure (hoping) they find a way to deal with that.
Yeah, so, I hadn't even noticed that the Inquisitors and Consulars were being depicted as the double-bladed saber wielders until it was mentioned here, and now it irritates the hell out of me. Thanks a lot.
I really hope that its resemblance to a staff isn't the real reason behind this choice. It may be of similar length, but it has none of the functions. Try to use it like a staff and you'll just end up ruining carpets and breaching hulls.
If they really think it's that important to have the 'casters' carry longer objects....
What I am hoping for in the new Starwars is:
- Space comabt somewhat like SWG Jump to Lightspeed,
- PvP that efrfects all players and PvE that effects all players,
- Player Housing just like SWG is atm,
- I DON'T WANT TO START AS A JEDI...this needs to be a path of redeemption or disscovery for the player not a click "now I'm a Jedi lvl 1 and gona start the game"
My two cents by point.
Nub's
The article is all well and good and all, but TOR is ages away from release date. I also find any concern about LORE laughable from this site. Where was the WOW throws Lore out the window Article, or players think DKs and Tauren Paladins are stupid?
This site has made too many bad calls on its own to be attacking a game thats not even in Beta yet.. I mean come one.
Or isn't this the same place that gave WOTLK a perfect review?
LOL
“A trend that was not present in BioWare’s KotOR games.” “desperately wants to be an original trilogy game.”
That was before it was acquired by EA, now under the control of Mr Haggan-Dazzs/Pepsi Cola. I would expect everyone to look like the leads from the films, regardless of what their class background is supposed to be. :)
I am glad to see a nod in the direction of three factions, maybe it can be added on later, but I doubt it.
Having a heavily 'you are the hero' storyline and grouping do not mix. I will predicate now that anyone who likes grouping will find STOR a let down. Look at what AOC did, make you the hero for 20 levels then make grouping more important for the rest of the game. (Still a very solo game mind you).
Trying to bring a Fable feel to an online lobby game would work better. Maybe STOR will play more like that than a MMO? But in an effort to appeal to everyone they have to say you can group, for now that is. Modern MMO releases are making grouping such a pointless chore I doubt I will want to group in a couple of years time.
For people who like to be told what to do, then go do it thats great. I prefer a much more open world where I play the game. I can read a book while offline. They can keep their story. I'm looking to make my own.
It really galls me that some posters are completely blind to the fact that SWG offered freedom to choose like few MMO's. Hell no it was not the perfect game, it had problems, but nothing close to what NGE introduced.
Now we get the socialists complaining about a market driven economy. Sorry fellows even Russia could not make a go of the alternative. Some things are going to be expensive because they are hard to make and everyone wants them.
Some of you posters expect the MMO you play to do everything for you, make all your choices and lead you by the hand. where is the challenge in that? That is what Kotor will be, a lead you by the hand MMO. Your class and progression already set in stone. While Bioware will tell a very good story as they always do, there is no freedom to choose in their games. You play their games they way they want you to or don't play.
Hence, the author pretty much nailed it in his article. Players don't play non challenging MMO's for long.
Similarly like the OP pointed out about not playing "Force Unleashed", I won't be playing SWTOR just because it has a star wars label. There are some gamers who actually don't play just anything that comes along. I am a long time star wars fan, BW has a good track record with console titles, but it's a different ball game with mmo's and they know it.
But it may be that BW will go "the easy button" route and dumb the IP down in order to play it safe and not risk only appealing to the star wars fan niche. Only time will tell but so far I haven't seen BW make any changes (or comments even) to any content released based on obvious fan disapproval and that isn't a great sign of things to come.
WoW , Micheal - Nice article.
The article was silly. It was bashing a not-yet-released game for not being EXACTLY faithful to the lore. As long as it's a fun game.
Also, as a very long time gamer, I don't want "challenging" MMOs. If I want to be challenged, I'll play bridge. I want to feel powerful, be the hero, relax and kick-ass. This notion that MMOs need to constantly challenge all players is only true for the hardcore.
You could say the same thing about WoW, but I can and do group in that game, quite easily, whenever I want to, and so do ALOT of other players. Some people don't realize MMOs are really about the community no matter how you try to play. But most of them do.
Sort of missing the forest for the trees on the lightsaber issue.
I'm more worried about the fact that everyone will be wailing on each other like pinatas rather than showing the finesse and lethality of them. This, to me, is indicative of overall issues. If they won't take the time to do lightsaber combat right (implement some fatigue system which ends in a killing blow) it seems they just don't care enough to be true to the universe.
Then again, they're going for the loose Star Wars setting, so they'll just make it up as they go along and slap the Star Wars trademark on it.
Indeed. The Jedi have an entire lightsaber combat style around fighting with two lightsabers (or with a double lightsaber). To say nothing of how the article is flat-out wrong about how this works in game. Any Force user can use a single lightsaber, double, or two seperate lightsabers. It is NOT a "caster staff" for the more mystic force users.
Agreed, this "expert" has not played Kotor or Kotor 2 then preceedes to tell us how he wants the lore to play? Double bladed lightsabers are everywhere in Kotor. I also made a toon that used two lightsabers in Kotor. This is simply a poorly written article from another SWG whiner. MMORPG has put up a pretty bad article from a poorly informed person.
Kotor & Kotor 2 sold millons. Kotor and Kotor 2 are the best Starwars by far both in reviews as well as sales. This was a pretty low point from MMORPG.
As much as I've enjoyed Bioware games over the years, I'm still convinced that not even they will be able to justice to the Star Wars universe, to the point that a purist such as myself would be satisfied. Not even George Lucas could manage it the second time around. This one will doubtlessly go into the pile of all the other Star Wars wannabe, IP-exploitation trash. It may even play well and be a good game in its own rights, but I just don't believe it will be Star Wars.
Prove me wrong, Bioware.
I dont share this opinion. I dont share it because even the worst case scenario is awesome (co-op kotor3).
I heartily disagree with this sentiment.
You can easily have a "You are A hero" storyline and grouping. Bioware is doing the necessary work to make it so that in a group everyone still makes decisions on how things pan out.
Not to your personal vision of the Star Wars universe, perhaps, but true to the Star Wars universe just the same.
Well, admittedly in Bioware games you have the same major plot-related battles. However, how you navigated between those fights, what abilities you had in them, and in short, the journey itself could vary wildly depending on the player choices. All Bioware games are like this. Though, obviously in their games there are a lot of optional side battles or even battles you can stop or avoid.
Yes, your class to an extent, will be "set in stone" but you CHOOSE what class you want at the beginning. Your story is has a huge component that is part of that initial choice.
Now, is this the absolute PERFECT MMO? No. My perfect MMO would have enemies with a lot of AI who do things on their own. GM/Dev driven groups that will continue to act and do things unless they are stopped (and if no one does anything, they become more and more powerful and their position becomes that much harder to stop directly). It would have a vibrant world that continued on even if the players did nothing. It would have quests that spontaneously generated when a player got close with people running up to the player and asking for help finding a child, a book, putting out a fire, etc. The end result would be all that mattered in finishing a quest, and the engine would support player creativity on using objects, deception, bluffing, and all manner of methods for resolving problems. It would be a huge, expansive world that you could explore and always find new things.
No, Star Wars: TOR is not going to be my perfect MMO. But my perfect MMO doesn't exist as the technology just isn't there. Instead of bashing it for not doing more that no other MMO has ever done, perhaps you should praise it for moving in the right direction. Players will actually HAVE choices and those choices will make things play out different. Granted, we won't have all the choices we might like, we won't be able to do every single thing we might possibly want to do. There's NO MMO that's ever been made that's like that. Sandboxes aren't like that (they have freedom, but honestly, little in depth story). A good bit of choice is a heck of a lot better than none.
I agree and disagree with a lot of what you have to say. Being not "that guy" for Star Wars, I mean I love the Original Trilogy and have played my share of Star Wars games...but seriously, this is Bioware's game, they can design what it looks like, they can decide what the classes are. If you don't like it, play something else or create your own game. I'm sick of people complaining about it not being the perfect Star Wars game, there will never be the perfect Star Wars game. Get over it. Play the game for what it is.
I was going to apply for the beta last year, but I got as far as the game logo with is obvious red-vs-blue theme and realized it wasn't going to be a game for me.
The games of Star Wars have definitely taken it far, far away from the memories I had as a farmboy staring off across the hayfields at sunsets, dreaming of mattering in the universe.
You know people saying you will not be a dedicated healer as a JC or SI? I remember being a shaman in WAR, hybrid dps/healer... guess what, for grouping/raiding I had to be a healer. All of the WAR classes were envisioned as being hybrid to some extent and all of them feel into dps/tank/healer/support when push came to shove.
Maybe ToR will do the hybrid thing better... I'm certainly expecting the game with a storyline focus to be more solo-centric and grouping to be the incidental part of the game rather than the other way round, so a class with a mixed bag of tricks could work. At least until you get epic mobs requiring certain skill sets to take down or they'll be trivially easy. I guess too early to say, as Bioware haven't said jack about how they envisage end-game working.
I'd think two hybrids in War could take the place of a healer (but I don't really know how it was balanced or if there were scaling issues or what).
Anyhow, TOR is a game designed around breaking the Holy Trinity mold. They Devs have stated they don't want that. So unlike War, which wasn't designed to avoid that, TOR will be different. For one, there aren't going to be ANY classes in TOR that can spam heals. That just can't happen. Hence the combat will be balanced around fewer heals and so it should work out just fine.
There is only two rules I will judge SW-TOR by...
If every IP game has to live hard & fast by every technical aspect of some made-up, conglomeration of abilties.. then I would bet the very narrow playerbase who 'enjoys' that would not generate enough funds to program even a fraction of the system costs it would take to make it in the first place.
So long as there are no EXTREMES.... force pulling down ISDs... godmoding... silly stuff that is simply not necessary for the game enjoyment... then I can enjoy the game.
I love listen to/ reading from fans that are even geekier than I am as they pick out the little details
/nods to above comments
All I can to do is be clear of expectations and hope for the best.
You are not a columist, you are a theorists. Your words hold no wieght in my mind, only your status on MMORPG gives your words some meaning. To those that know no better or are too young to see this lore junkies follies don't even waste your time reading this.
50% speculation + 30% Lore Junky + 20% cry baby = garbage
ps. Who gives a rats balls about lore as long as the story works and is good? I don't care who can wield a double bladed saber or pull a destroyer down from the sky, if it works great.
pss. Let go of SWG dude it has been 5 years since that game died.
Don't bother posting anything negative. I did and it was deleted without a word, as well as other posts that were not mine.
Not to mention, mine wasn't nearly as brash so he'll delete this one too.
If you take a universe as fleshed-out as Star Wars (or Star Trek, LoTR, etc) out of the media format it was initially developed in, then some things will, without exception, be lost in the translation for the sake of accessibility, design and straight-up proft. For example, the Sith Warrior seems to be able to tank/DPS, and thus his armour might have been changed to reflect that; rather than flowing, fluid robes which might signal a "slicker" class, such as single-target DPS (for assassin roles). Still, I agree with you in that respect, Sith Warriors should have robes, if only for the sake of sheer badassery.
Regarding double-bladed lightsabers, I think that they don't fit from a design perspective either. Why does the Inquisitor (who seems to be a Mage, to draw a vague parallel) have a powerful, heavy-hitting weapon? Shouldn't the Warrior classes have access to them instead? Just my opinion there, we'll see how it affects gameplay at launch.
To be honest, we can't really apply much Lucas-created lore here, as any lore from the Old Republic era would be based on KOTOR (since lore from the period was sparse at the time); meaning that BioWare are largely working off their own lore here. I'd rather they did their own thing (but kept it reconisable as Star Wars) and wove a compelling story rather than sticking rigidly to all the lore and putting out a wooden storyline on par with most of the generic trash in MMOs. Don't get me wrong, I like MMOs, just think that the stories need serious work, and if BioWare can do it, then lore be damned.
FIrst off, on the whole dual wielding thing. This is something the whiners in SWG have asked for and for a long time. Bioware did this just because they knew it would attract those players immediately. This should give you an idea as to the real market for this game as well.
Why so much Jedi? If you have to ask then you must be dumb and blind. Jedi or Sith are the two classes the general public is interested in. Lets face it, the name of the game here is money short term. That is all the current staff at LA are looking for atm. IMHO. Bioware is not going to argue in times like these.
The game will be as flat and early released at STO. IE, it will need another year of development to complete, at a minimum.
Also must take note that design decisions are going to theme part type layouts because it is much more adaptable to the game consoles and the mind set of those players.
The Force Unleashed was a technology deomonstration and a marketing approach that will begin to dominate MMOs. IE, if the game does not have the capability to transistion to the console market, it will not be of interest to investors.
I totally agree with you Pink.
MMOs is a balance trick for companies and their owners to make things work, appeal to as much as possible and make wads of cash.
Did I have fun in force unleashed? YES! it served the purpose of what it was for.
What my concern is with the "geeks" and "star wars fan boys" is that they think they know better than anyone else. What their problem is, is that Mr Lucas didnt create SW for them but for everyone and Mr Lucas didnt make them apostles or Champions of his Story. Do you know, who Lucas trusts? the ones that will assure him to get a piece of the Pie from the earnings. So who cares if the consular wields the double bladed and the sith warrior seems to emulate vader. Is not your "take on star Wars", if you are so bent on getting your dreams crushed by Bioware, get your own freaking team of editors. animators, copy writers, producers, concept artists, etc and oh yeah and someone to financially support you and believe your BS, until then, you are no different than the rest of us here waiting on SWTOR with your "concerns".
Just Believe in Bioware or GTFO.
I totally agree with you Pink.
MMOs is a balance trick for companies and their owners to make things work, appeal to as much as possible and make wads of cash.
Did I have fun in force unleashed? YES! it served the purpose of what it was for.
What my concern is with the "geeks" and "star wars fan boys" is that they think they know better than anyone else. What their problem is, is that Mr Lucas didnt create SW for them but for everyone and Mr Lucas didnt make them apostles or Champions of his Story. Do you know, who Lucas trusts? the ones that will assure him to get a piece of the Pie from the earnings. So who cares if the consular wields the double bladed and the sith warrior seems to emulate vader. Is not your "take on star Wars", if you are so bent on getting your dreams crushed by Bioware, get your own freaking team of editors. animators, copy writers, producers, concept artists, etc and oh yeah and someone to financially support you and believe your BS, until then, you are no different than the rest of us here waiting on SWTOR with your "concerns".
Just Believe in Bioware or GTFO.
Whoah. Mate, calm down, I think that Mr. Bitton was just expressing his personal concerns about TOR, and why it might not be the game for him, as a Star Wars nerd. I agree, George Lucas probably isn't all that bothered with keeping every single shred of the lore intact, as long as it remains more or less connected with the universe and the IP will sell. Still, try and avoid dismissing the opinions of lore geeks, some of it is genuinely fascinating, and if someone fundementally alters a story that you love it can be very, very annoying.
I also had a lot of fun in The Force Unleashed, and I'd like another game based around "kicking ass with the Force", purely because I think that there's a hell of a lot of potential for an awesome telekinetic-power-driven fighting game. Obviously, Mr. Bitton doesn't agree, and we should respect that. The column is his own opinion, he's not trying expressly to stop us, as consumers, from buying TOR when it launches. Personally, I like what I've seen so far, and if they put up a limited lifetime sub, then I'd be one of the first in line for one.
Concerning double-bladed sabers, I agree with the article, but from a gameplay point of view rather than lore. Just saying, after seeing Darth Maul wield a dual-bladed lightsaber, I think that a weapon that powerful should go to a class under the Tank/DPS archetype rather than the Mage. Just saying. I mean, I wouldn't want to see an overpowered force-user, but on the other hand it would suck to see double-bladed sabers get nerfed because the Mage class is using them.
But still, as I said before, we can't really complain about the lore here, as all of the fundemental aspects of SW seem to be in place, and, to be honest, there isn't all that much official, Lucas-produced information on this period. Most of the info on the Old Republic era was actually created by BioWare for KOTOR. I think I saw an interview with a member of Bioware who stated that they actually enjoyed working on KOTOR because they could create so much of the lore themselves, and it let them shape a better story around the lore. So this is essentially BW working off their own backstory. They've shown us that they can create some of the best emotionally-driven experiences out there, and now they're returning to a universe which they essentially defined. It's already been stated by BW that there'll be enough content in TOR for another five KOTOR games.
And, let's be fair, BioWare have never, ever created a bad game. Fine, ME2 has divided the fanbase a bit, but it's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination. I, for one, think that we should put our concerns aside and just focuse on being very, very excited. I know I am.
Don't bother posting anything negative. I did and it was deleted without a word, as well as other posts that were not mine.
Not to mention, mine wasn't nearly as brash so he'll delete this one too.
Step back a second. Use that thing on your head before you make a fool out of yourselves. If you think about it, far too many of these MMO's get way over lauded all the time. Sure we know the Star Wars IP is sacrosanct with you. That does not mean that Bioware is going to do any better than any of these other developers with the game.
Bioware has zero experience producing a MMO, while they do produce excellent rpg games, that is not enough reason to give them a blank cheque.
The critique by the author express his doubts about the game from the information we have seen about it so far. It looks to most of us like a scripted linear MMO with a good story line, but with very little flexibility in doing your own thing in the game. Maybe you are lazy and want the game to guide you through the levels. Many of us like challenge. This game as it appears now from the information provided seems to have very little of that.
Hey, if you like that type of game, have at it, but you will have to expect criticism from those of us who actually like challenge in a MMO.
You're right there, and that worries me a bit. Story-driven is all good, until you realise that everything you do is meaningless within the context of the game. Having said that, this seems to be aiming for the WoW-esque market, and there's plenty of room for story improvements there. To be honest, the only MMOs in which player interaction matters seem to be the ones that store all their players on one server. Think about it; EVE and Face of Mankind are both examples of games that are shaped by player interaction, and every big decision made by faction leaders and members affects the entire player base; thus players actually wield power. Face of Mankind, I believe, is a particularly good example of this, as it still has a small enough player base to allow friendly communities to exist within the factions. For example, EVE's mega-corporations are normally massive affairs where it takes weeks to contact your CEO or address a problem, in FoM I can talk to my faction leader daily, and we all work together (I'm in the military faction) as a co-ordinated outfit, partly because we all know each other.
TOR seems to be aiming for linear, story-focused gameplay, and that's something that BioWare do well. If they step out of their comfort zone so much as to add features like capturable, faction-controlled planets, faction decisions being driven by players, and hundreds of thousands of players per server, they'll either become RPG gods, or fail spectacularly. And some things are too ambitious for even BioWare to tackle at once. Let's not forget that this is their first MMO project, and that they don't do free-form games. Their stories are awesome, and they feature quite a large element of player choice, but you're basically trying to get from point A to point B.
So far, we haven't managed to take the concept of player freedom and sandbox gameplay and put a meaningful story into the mix, and I get the feeling it'll be a long time before that's possible, if it ever is. So if BioWare are pushing for an ultimately linear (albeit choice-filled), story-driven MMO, then so be it. You want sandbox, sorry mate, play EVE. Now that is one tough son of a bitch.
Mortal Online also looks good. Or we could just wait for the inevitable Elder Scrolls RPG.
ToR is not going to be the SWG replacement everyone is hoping for. It will be DA with blasters. That's not a bad thing but it is a far cry from what many are looking for in an MMO. The heavy reliance of Jedi only demostrates LA's opinion that everything should revolve around that character type. The old days of the original trilogy and its non-reliance on "Jedi" is long gone.
The sad truth is SWG will remain one of the leading "sandbox" style games despite it's "setbacks".
Or you can stick with WAR or AoC or STO or any of the other themepark trainwrecks out there today.
Mr. Bitton hit the nail on the head with his comment about the lack of a third, neutral smuggler/crime faction. I heartily agree with this. A third faction that could go either way was one of the critical elements that made DAoC a fantastic RvR and PvP game. A third faction provides a whole additional layer of complexity to the meta game. Two factions gets predictable and boring (as evidenced by Warhammer online) and can lead to massive population imbalances.
The problem with all these critiques, is that most of the fellas here are bringing out examples of certain features other games that were released already and published, yet swtor is not out, and people are saying, swtor should be like this game and have this from this game, etc, etc. Most of the fanboys here are eyaculating way to early with their misconceptions.
You know very little about the game or as much as everyone else.
As far as bioware not having any experience with MMOs. That is the most absurd observation I have read yet. If you consider yourself a serious person, I would retract that.
So if Bioware, a large brand in games, makes huge mistake in the process of making the game, you think they gonna say: OH sorry, this is our first time. That would sound at best too Tiger Woods like. First of all, the list for successful MMO out there, is at best very short, extremely short. Second, the companies that made it there, did not have huge amount of experience in MMO design and they made their game better over a large period of time acquiring that experience.
Don't come here and say Bioware has no experience making mmo because they have rather a solid and successful foundation of making a mmo, which is designing RPGs, which is what mmo's are in a large scale, thus the name of this website.
Obviously whoever said that did not stop to think really what Bioware has under their belt. Your minute amount of knowledge of Bioware is comparable to what you know of swtor.
I enjoyed the article and appreciate some of the points raised, but as far as I have seen with IPs that have followings such as Star Wars does- regardless of what errors Bioware may make with the canon players will ruin the experience far more than the game itself will. It seems more and more since WoW was released that the majority of people playing MMORPGs just don't care about staying true to the role they play. Eventually RP-preferred servers wind up flooded with "lols" and "pwning;" completely ruining any immersion that could have been found. I doubt Bioware will have any dynamics in game to dissuade people from this attitude.
You can't disuade people from saying "lol" on the internet. All you can do is replace it to automatically /emote laugh, instead. Which is fine with me. But... I doubht thats going to happen in Most any MMO, let alone TOR.
But as far as controlling player appearances to make them look more appropirate to the IP enviroment that they're within... Bioware has 100% control over that and are failing at it.
SWTOR's character models are a joke, their outfits are the most gawdy and odd looking ever to hit a Star Wars game and the animations in the game look absolutely wretched. Dragon Age wretched.
TOR will have a good story, the rest about it will be a serious snooze. THATS Bioware games.
hmm, it's a good article and well written, and wasn't too bad to read..
however, i'm afraid i don't share any of these concerns or views.
pretty much all of what you said was basically lore and continuity stuff, something Bioware isn't known for keeping completely in line for.. it's what makes them a vastly original company. i for one, am pleased by this approach.
i mean you have to remember, Starwars may have started of "just a movie" but it has developed into an entire THEME now.. and that's what this game's theme is going to be.
it's not going to be a complete retelling of stories, a rehash of old games, adventures from the books or scenes from the movies.. it's going to be something completely new and original, set under a known theme. I think Bioware are making the right move.
To give some perspective, i'm increasingly becoming disappointed with Lord of the Rings Online because it just feels like Tolkien Enterprises are completely hamstringing them and disallowing any original thought. PvP, mount system, raid system and class system (and other stuff) suffer as a result and everything is becoming a little stale in that game now.
This isn't to say I'm hoping to see the disaster that was SWG (post NGE) but I think games/companies entirely dedicated to continuity and lore really hamstring themselves and am pleased Bioware is looking to reinvent the wheel as it were on all levels.
Sadly QFT.