Mortal Online Forum » General Discussion » Blind support or true believers?

Originally posted by Neoptolemus

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

The whole idea of players "withholding" their wallets doesn't seem to be working as far as getting them to make a sandbox heavy game. Neither does coming onto these forums and telling them "Hey, there's a large group of us who want something else. So, why not jump on board with one of these indy companies who are making a game more to what you want and give them money. Maybe these larger companies will take notice of that and start making a well funded sandbox game.

 

People aren't witholding their wallets though, are they? WoW has millions of subscribers, Modern Warfare 2 sold like a billion copies in the first 5 minutes of hitting the shelves.

 

Also, giving money in support should only be done if the company has demonstrated that they are capable of producing the promised article. I would happily donate to something like Natural Selection 2 or Dwarf Fortress because the dev team has demonstrated the nous and ability to produce well-thought-out, polished material.

 

SV has just thrown poorly made stuff in without any proper planning and forethought. That isn't a budget issue, that's down to poor management and implementation, plain and simple. Giving them more money will do nothing to improve the quality of the game, only a major restructuring of the development cycle can solve that.

 

Just look at Duke Nukem Forever, that is the perfect example of how more money is not always the answer. Their budget spiralled out of control and they ended up spending 9 years making a game that never even got released. Millions of dollars down the drain.

DNF is a classic example of why not having an underlying roadmap and design are going to doom you to failure.

Broussard, who was the lead on Duke Nukem Forever, kept stealing ideas from other games (sound familiar?) to the point where his own design was problematic. Quake II has this, OMG we need to put that in! OMG Unreal has this, get that!

The full article on the whole debacle is here: www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/fail_duke_nukem/

A lot of lessons can be learned from it, and that's coming from a software house that had a lot of experience and a really stellar shipped title (Duke Nukem) among many others. And if you look at what SV is doing now, you can basically pinpoint a lot of the issues to exactly the problems that caused DNF to fail. Of course, DNF was a far bigger budget title than MO, but if you can learn a lesson, who cares where it comes from?

 What's interesting here is that people seem to forget that they are ultimately buying a product. If the product is good and works as promised, then the company who produces that product makes money and gets to invest that money in either improving on their current product or making another one to further grow their wealth. 

If you want to play the game, pay for it. If you want to invest in the company so that they can have more revenue to polish/fix the game, then buy stock and have a chance at getting a real return on your investment. Paying for a game that is still techically not released because you think that it has potential is not only idiotic, but counter-productive. You are robbing Star Vault of the feedback that you would be giving them by playing their game and you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to make some money if this game does do well by not investing in the company. BTW- investing money in the company would give it some much needed capital. Buying the game would do the same. Buying the game to not play it, but "invest" in it means that you are a moron.

Originally posted by Astralglide

 What's interesting here is that people seem to forget that they are ultimately buying a product. If the product is good and works as promised, then the company who produces that product makes money and gets to invest that money in either improving on their current product or making another one to further grow their wealth. 

If you want to play the game, pay for it. If you want to invest in the company so that they can have more revenue to polish/fix the game, then buy stock and have a chance at getting a real return on your investment. Paying for a game that is still techically not released because you think that it has potential is not only idiotic, but counter-productive. You are robbing Star Vault of the feedback that you would be giving them by playing their game and you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to make some money if this game does do well by not investing in the company. BTW- investing money in the company would give it some much needed capital. Buying the game would do the same. Buying the game to not play it, but "invest" in it means that you are a moron.

A quick "investment" lesson for folks as well (not directed at you Astral) -- your "investment" into SV stocks would give the company ZERO MONEY.

Until the company floats MORE stock and dillutes the current ownership, the only thing you're doing is moving the current ownership around, but you're not actually giving SV any investment AT ALL. And to invest in them by supporting them blindly only gives credence to the other wannabe developers that are going to try to create the next piece of crap game, because they know a whole slew of idiots will buy it whether it sucks or not.

Originally posted by HerculesSAS

Originally posted by Astralglide

 What's interesting here is that people seem to forget that they are ultimately buying a product. If the product is good and works as promised, then the company who produces that product makes money and gets to invest that money in either improving on their current product or making another one to further grow their wealth. 

If you want to play the game, pay for it. If you want to invest in the company so that they can have more revenue to polish/fix the game, then buy stock and have a chance at getting a real return on your investment. Paying for a game that is still techically not released because you think that it has potential is not only idiotic, but counter-productive. You are robbing Star Vault of the feedback that you would be giving them by playing their game and you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to make some money if this game does do well by not investing in the company. BTW- investing money in the company would give it some much needed capital. Buying the game would do the same. Buying the game to not play it, but "invest" in it means that you are a moron.

 

A quick "investment" lesson for folks as well (not directed at you Astral) -- your "investment" into SV stocks would give the company ZERO MONEY.

 

Until the company floats MORE stock and dillutes the current ownership, the only thing you're doing is moving the current ownership around, but you're not actually giving SV any investment AT ALL. And to invest in them by supporting them blindly only gives credence to the other wannabe developers that are going to try to create the next piece of crap game, because they know a whole slew of idiots will buy it whether it sucks or not.

My mistake. I thought that buying currently releaseed stock generated capital. TY for the info!

Originally posted by Astralglide

Originally posted by HerculesSAS

Originally posted by Astralglide

 What's interesting here is that people seem to forget that they are ultimately buying a product. If the product is good and works as promised, then the company who produces that product makes money and gets to invest that money in either improving on their current product or making another one to further grow their wealth. 

If you want to play the game, pay for it. If you want to invest in the company so that they can have more revenue to polish/fix the game, then buy stock and have a chance at getting a real return on your investment. Paying for a game that is still techically not released because you think that it has potential is not only idiotic, but counter-productive. You are robbing Star Vault of the feedback that you would be giving them by playing their game and you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to make some money if this game does do well by not investing in the company. BTW- investing money in the company would give it some much needed capital. Buying the game would do the same. Buying the game to not play it, but "invest" in it means that you are a moron.

 

A quick "investment" lesson for folks as well (not directed at you Astral) -- your "investment" into SV stocks would give the company ZERO MONEY.

 

Until the company floats MORE stock and dillutes the current ownership, the only thing you're doing is moving the current ownership around, but you're not actually giving SV any investment AT ALL. And to invest in them by supporting them blindly only gives credence to the other wannabe developers that are going to try to create the next piece of crap game, because they know a whole slew of idiots will buy it whether it sucks or not.

My mistake. I thought that buying currently releaseed stock generated capital. TY for the info!

They could make money off an increased stock price -- but that actually means they have to post good financials and release a good product. LOL

Originally posted by HerculesSAS

Originally posted by Astralglide

 What's interesting here is that people seem to forget that they are ultimately buying a product. If the product is good and works as promised, then the company who produces that product makes money and gets to invest that money in either improving on their current product or making another one to further grow their wealth. 

If you want to play the game, pay for it. If you want to invest in the company so that they can have more revenue to polish/fix the game, then buy stock and have a chance at getting a real return on your investment. Paying for a game that is still techically not released because you think that it has potential is not only idiotic, but counter-productive. You are robbing Star Vault of the feedback that you would be giving them by playing their game and you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to make some money if this game does do well by not investing in the company. BTW- investing money in the company would give it some much needed capital. Buying the game would do the same. Buying the game to not play it, but "invest" in it means that you are a moron.

 

A quick "investment" lesson for folks as well (not directed at you Astral) -- your "investment" into SV stocks would give the company ZERO MONEY.

 

Until the company floats MORE stock and dillutes the current ownership, the only thing you're doing is moving the current ownership around, but you're not actually giving SV any investment AT ALL. And to invest in them by supporting them blindly only gives credence to the other wannabe developers that are going to try to create the next piece of crap game, because they know a whole slew of idiots will buy it whether it sucks or not.

Unless the company owns its own stock and sells it to the public. The stock ownership is unknown and you can still invest money into it that way. Also, the more its stock trades, the better the company looks and its stock price goes up. If the price goes up and they need capital, they issue more stock.

It DOES help to buy thier stock more than just giving funds to them. Buying the game tells them the product is fine as is for those who are paying for it. Buying the stock shows the investors that there is interest in the company.

Mortal Online is a good game being run by a good group of people, that is why I support it.

Now lets take the game you support.....Darkfall.

I followed Darkfall for a long time before it was released. It was full of lies and deception and still is to this day, and that is why I will not support Darkfall.

I personally hope this game does well and fleshes out to the point its worth buying and subbing.

However there is no way in hell I would pay for something that " might " be good in 6 months or a year. Just because I can afford it does not mean I feel I should support someone who I feel is releasing an inferior product with the hope of it getting better.

To me just does not make much sense. But this is just my opinion.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Those two choices pretty much nail it. Common sense and all. Course there are always exceptions, such as people on government welfare who use funds to play games. But most times such programs use a card or issue stamps to prevent such unauthorized use. So, in the majority, they get their money the same way you get your (provided you get yours legally). ;p

 

That was more pointed towards if they blindly support it because their parents give them money, and the person does not have any responsibility in what they do with it, so they will just give it to Starvault.

It still, overall, doesn't matter. Most people who are involved in the gaming hobby period throw away $15/month on useless crap anyway. So what's the harm in them helping out a company that is at least going down the right road as far as they see with MMO design. I mean, again, maybe some of these bigger named companies will see this passion and devotion and get a hint that a well-funded sandbox MMO will indeed grab a passionate, long term audience.

But seriously, don't try to trump up "responsibility" in this. If that were the case none of us should be here. At least they are investing their $15/month in something they believe in, which is more than I can say for the majority of people in this world.

The irony in these forums is that people will do everything possible to defend and promote their right to act like an idiot... but get bent out of shape when others try to do the same... just because the first group doesn't agree with the second's actions or beliefs... idiotic as both might be.

the perception is: It's much easier to change the world, than to change myself.

[Mod Edit]

Originally posted by Domesto

Mortal Online is a good game being run by a good group of people, that is why I support it.

Now lets take the game you support.....Darkfall.

I followed Darkfall for a long time before it was released. It was full of lies and deception and still is to this day, and that is why I will not support Darkfall.

 

Who supports Darkfall?  I don't...  What are you talking about?  I played that game for 3 days and got a refund.

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

I am trying to understand the way people think.    I am trying to figure out why people will support a game by paying a monthly fee, while they will not play it.  Is this blind support for the "hope" of "potential" the game has, or is this a legitimate point/position? 

Can someone explain to me why people will spend money on a product and not play it only for the "hope" that the game will get better in the future?  I value money and I could never see myself giving a company money just hoping their product will get better.  Giving donations to a charity is one thing, but giving money to a publicly owned company is another.

 

This is not a troll/hater post, I believe this is a legitimate question.

 

www.mortalonline.com/forums/36938-poll-will-you-buy-subscribe-mo-its-current-state-3.html#post769653

 

 

www.mortalonline.com/forums/36938-poll-will-you-buy-subscribe-mo-its-current-state-3.html#post767836

 

 

 

www.mortalonline.com/forums/36938-poll-will-you-buy-subscribe-mo-its-current-state-4.html#post777194

 

 

www.mortalonline.com/forums/36938-poll-will-you-buy-subscribe-mo-its-current-state-4.html#post777804

 

Its really interesting and intelligent question,

Originally posted by emota

 

 

Its really interesting and intelligent question,

I can't tell if your sincere or if thats sarcasm

I have said this numerous times and it applies to many games.. not just Mortal Online.

We cannot continue to LOWER the bar of what is acceptable for a company to shovel our way.  We, as consumers must DEMAND that games be complete and working bug free when they sell it to us.  This whole mentality of "Take what we give you and we will fix it later" is very bad.   We need to stop lowering the bar and raise it so that a consumer can have confidence that when they buy a game it will work.  I am not talking about adding in extra content and expansions, but all games should launch with enough content to keep folks busy for a reasonable amount of time and be generally bug free.

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

I have said this numerous times and it applies to many games.. not just Mortal Online.

 

We cannot continue to LOWER the bar of what is acceptable for a company to shovel our way.  We, as consumers must DEMAND that games be complete and working bug free when they sell it to us.  This whole mentality of "Take what we give you and we will fix it later" is very bad.   We need to stop lowering the bar and raise it so that a consumer can have confidence that when they buy a game it will work.  I am not talking about adding in extra content and expansions, but all games should launch with enough content to keep folks busy for a reasonable amount of time and be generally bug free.

 

I believe everyone agrees with you there.  But the problem is, the fans of MO have gotten into the mindset of "it will be fixed soon" and "it will be added after launch" while those bugs that were suppose to be fixed soon(TM) are still there at release. 

you buy a product. you dont support an idea with money

not that this doesnt happen and needs to happen for innovation, but the ppl who throw money after such ideas expects to earn money on said innovative idea.

as a consumer would never pay to support an ideal of said random persons. and yes they have worked alot on adding new features. not content. and havent fixed problems....over all this just isnt a game yet. its not fun...unless you like kill the first person you come across.

they just aint professional enough in their approach to the gaming industry.....they really should have had afew years in a game studio before throw themself at a major project like this.....with some awesome ideas...but poor execution. so far atleast :P

either way if they make it. and end up with a good game, am sure "MO veterans" will have something to be happy about....wont recieve much understanding from me tho....that they financed an MMO production with no gains, but the right to spend money like it were nothing...

---

Originally posted by Hedeon

you buy a product. you dont support an idea with money
 
not that this doesnt happen and needs to happen for innovation, but the ppl who throw money after such ideas expects to earn money on said innovative idea.
 

---

Actually, I disagree. You support all kinds of ideas with money. Investment firms to that with businesses, cancer researchers rely on funds, and all religions need money to survive and spread their ideas. MMORPGs, even WoW, are not religions or research. But they are businesses. If you want to invest in the product, invest in the company making the product. If you want control over the direction of a project, lie on your resume and get a job as a project manager or buy enough stock to have voting privellages. Do not buy a game with the intent of NOT playing it for six months. That gives developers and publishers the wrong idea. If your dog craps on your carpet, you don't give him a treat.

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

I have said this numerous times and it applies to many games.. not just Mortal Online.

 

We cannot continue to LOWER the bar of what is acceptable for a company to shovel our way.  We, as consumers must DEMAND that games be complete and working bug free when they sell it to us.  This whole mentality of "Take what we give you and we will fix it later" is very bad.   We need to stop lowering the bar and raise it so that a consumer can have confidence that when they buy a game it will work.  I am not talking about adding in extra content and expansions, but all games should launch with enough content to keep folks busy for a reasonable amount of time and be generally bug free.

 

Hit the nail on the head right there. I genuinely believe that if I started up a website, promised to create a sandbox game with full epic PvE quest arcs and 100 raid instances, as well as a huge open world (10x the size of WoW) with 25,000 players all competing and waging war on each other for resources and power, I could actually get people giving me money even if all I actually produced was some artwork and concept designs.

Unfortunately the lack of quality, big-budget sandbox titles out there is making fans of the genre desperate and they'll now pretty much cling to anything that promises to deliver that killer title they've been waiting for. They'll throw money at it, defend it to the death and pretty much jump on anyone who suggests this might just be yet another disappointment. Anything but accept the truth.

I think that's what were seeing here with MO. It's clear that SV are way out of their depth, but many still refuse to believe that and keep living in hope that the NEXT patch will fix all the problems with the game. I don't know, maybe they will pull the cat out of the bag at the last minute, but given that it's never happened before I'm more inclined to believe that the game will be released early with major issues and missing content, and will inevitably tank as a result.

Just look at Vanguard and Age of Conan, they both had a wealth of experience in MMO development and decent budgets, and they both crashed after a very unsatisfying beta. What chance does MO stand with team that has no prior experience at all, tiny budget and a beta that's arguably far worse than Vanguard's?

MMORPG development is risky, and quite often companies developing them go under. Also quite often external investor comes in and buys whole company (or just rights to the project), after the original company declared bankrupcy.

However I've never heard of external investors putting money on the table to help finish MMO without changes in ownership structure. They just wait until company is in really deep troubles and is forced to declare bankrupcy - so they can get 100% of company or project much cheaper.

So if you've got ~30 mln $ you can save Mortal Online, no matter what happens.

If you don't have 30 mln $ - stop wasting time playing MMOs and trolling on forums - and do something productive to earn it :)

Originally posted by Astralglide

 

---

Originally posted by Hedeon

 

you buy a product. you dont support an idea with money
 
not that this doesnt happen and needs to happen for innovation, but the ppl who throw money after such ideas expects to earn money on said innovative idea.
 

---

 

Actually, I disagree. You support all kinds of ideas with money. Investment firms to that with businesses, cancer researchers rely on funds, and all religions need money to survive and spread their ideas. MMORPGs, even WoW, are not religions or research. But they are businesses. If you want to invest in the product, invest in the company making the product. If you want control over the direction of a project, lie on your resume and get a job as a project manager or buy enough stock to have voting privellages. Do not buy a game with the intent of NOT playing it for six months. That gives developers and publishers the wrong idea. If your dog craps on your carpet, you don't give him a treat.

So just giving money to a publicly traded company is the same as giving money to cancer research and an investment firm?  That logic does not make any sense.

New thread made by an MO fan that is asking Starvault to put a donation button on the forum...

www.mortalonline.com/forums/37723-donations-support-sv-mortals-success.html

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

New thread made by an MO fan that is asking Starvault to put a donation button on the forum...

www.mortalonline.com/forums/37723-donations-support-sv-mortals-success.html

I see this as a form of fan culture. People are taking a stand, much like they do by supporting a given football club. There are those who stick to their club no matter what happens and are ready to purchace season-tickets, though they are fully aware from the fact that most of the matches will be subpar. Either this tie to the team is emotional or an investment to the (hopefully brighter) future of the club.

Mutatis mutandis, this same applies, seemingly, to gaming these days. In a sense, Mortal Online and Star Vault are the underdogs. They have some decent young players but noone genuinely thinks that they will make it big this season or even in the seasons to come. It might just be that they end up selling all their best players to those bigger teams and, eventually, lose interest of even the most adamant fan. Or then maybe not.

Originally posted by Harkkum

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

New thread made by an MO fan that is asking Starvault to put a donation button on the forum...

www.mortalonline.com/forums/37723-donations-support-sv-mortals-success.html

 

I see this as a form of fan culture. People are taking a stand, much like they do by supporting a given football club. There are those who stick to their club no matter what happens and are ready to purchace season-tickets, though they are fully aware from the fact that most of the matches will be subpar. Either this tie to the team is emotional or an investment to the (hopefully brighter) future of the club.

 

Mutatis mutandis, this same applies, seemingly, to gaming these days. In a sense, Mortal Online and Star Vault are the underdogs. They have some decent young players but noone genuinely thinks that they will make it big this season or even in the seasons to come. It might just be that they end up selling all their best players to those bigger teams and, eventually, lose interest of even the most adamant fan. Or then maybe not.

People buying season pass tickets is different than wanting to donate money to a video game because they want it to no die...

I would guess this comes from the frustration of how the big ones in the mmo industry don't give a flying shit about creating a sandboxish mmo. So supporting these small companies no matter how bad they are is the last hope in a market that barely has any sandbox games.

Perhaps some people hope that if companies like SV are successful it might initiate something and the big companies will start making AAA quality sandbox mmos.

I can understand it but I think in the end it sends out wrong signs... that it's alright to deliver half arsed games.

Originally posted by Forumfall

I would guess this comes from the frustration of how the big ones in the mmo industry don't give a flying shit about creating a sandboxish mmo. So supporting these small companies no matter how bad they are is the last hope in a market that barely has any sandbox games.

 

Perhaps some people hope that if companies like SV are successful it might initiate something and the big companies will start making AAA quality sandbox mmos.

 

I can understand it but I think in the end it sends out wrong signs... that it's alright to deliver half arsed games.

This.
But this should also suggest to developers they could charge a premium on sandboxes games to balance the lower subscription number, making viable to make a AAA sandbox

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Forumfall

I would guess this comes from the frustration of how the big ones in the mmo industry don't give a flying shit about creating a sandboxish mmo. So supporting these small companies no matter how bad they are is the last hope in a market that barely has any sandbox games.

 

Perhaps some people hope that if companies like SV are successful it might initiate something and the big companies will start making AAA quality sandbox mmos.

 

I can understand it but I think in the end it sends out wrong signs... that it's alright to deliver half arsed games.

 

This.
But this should also suggest to developers they could charge a premium on sandboxes games to balance the lower subscription number, making viable to make a AAA sandbox

Yes.. this I have agreed with in the past.  Instead of shoveling half baked and broken games on us to fit a pre-determined pricepoint... companies should release a full and complately functioning game and set the pricepoint they need to make that happen.

I refuse to lower the bar and accept incomplete and buggy games.  I will happilly pay a premium for a fully functional and complete game that I like.  Let them set a $25 pricepoint, but just DELIVER a product worth $25/month.